Error On Cylinder Balance Test

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Re: Error On Cylinder Balance Test

Postby DebbieSidera » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:48 am

The F456_ GTA is back! :D
I can't go home without pull these injectors (the car runs as crappy as before!)
I can't open the engine... so I have to wait. God... I want the transducer, right NOW! :?

How the heck they tested this injector? It has the same resistance and it spend the same amount of current than the old one.
I'm going to see how it sprays...
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Re: Error On Cylinder Balance Test

Postby Fat Freddy » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:13 am

Good news. You must be doing something right. :)

Did they actually do anything?

No clues as to why number 11?

I want the transducer, right NOW!


You can borrow mine for the arvo. :wink: :lol:

I would hang out for the WPS. A lot of complaints with noise on the PV350 (although that could probably be filtered), apparently the WPS has better accuracy. Also you will have to make your own probe up for the pv350 (?).
You don't want to fix a Ferrari with a Lada do ya?

FF
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Re: Error On Cylinder Balance Test

Postby mastertech02 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:11 am

HI Debbie .

Good to see you got this one back for further tests and a possibly a solution.

I am having difficulty in understanding how the ignition timing can be out on one bank and not the other ?

The 5.2motronic has 2 crank sensors spaced 60 deg apart. So if a mechanical issue with the fly wheel should affect both banks ?

Has any repairs been carried out on the crank sensor looms that could have swapped the pins on one of the sensors which may have moved the ignition timing by approx 6 degrees (one tooth of the fly wheel sensor).
May be worth swapping sensors Bank1 to 2 and see if ignition timing issue shifts to other bank if wiring ok.

Camshaft /phase sensor fitted to bank 1 exhaust if issue or mechanical issue should affect ignition timing in both banks ?
What is the affect if disconnected and then engine started.

In you earlier post there were cylinder misfire codes have they been cleared ?
Which codes are now present are they as previous ?
Previouslsly misfire Bank 1 cyls 2 +5 and Bank 2 cyls 7+12 (also cyl 11). If Ignition wasted spark these cylinders may share same coils . And coil output may be weak and or affecting the ignition timing as coil driver attempts to fier the coil ?

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Dennis Carey
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Re: Error On Cylinder Balance Test

Postby DebbieSidera » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:11 am

Fat Freddy wrote:No clues as to why number 11?

I put gas pressure on the injectors and the #11th spray exactly the same as the other ones...

I would hang out for the WPS. A lot of complaints with noise on the PV350 (although that could probably be filtered), apparently the WPS has better accuracy. Also you will have to make your own probe up for the pv350 (?).
You don't want to fix a Ferrari with a Lada do ya?

You are right, I always try to choice for the best tools. Definitely I'll take the WPS soon.
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Re: Error On Cylinder Balance Test

Postby DebbieSidera » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:17 am

mastertech02 wrote:
I am having difficulty in understanding how the ignition timing can be out on one bank and not the other ? The 5.2motronic has 2 crank sensors spaced 60 deg apart. So if a mechanical issue with the fly wheel should affect both banks? Has any repairs been carried out on the crank sensor looms that could have swapped the pins on one of the sensors which may have moved the ignition timing by approx 6 degrees (one tooth of the fly wheel sensor).
May be worth swapping sensors Bank1 to 2 and see if ignition timing issue shifts to other bank if wiring ok.

I don't Know the car background. Yes, I already swapped the crank sensors. Dennis my feelings are on the cams. The engine has 4 cams and one of the could be off. The pulleys have a factory mark for the correct timing and I can see them thru the front plastic cover, I mean they look correct but this doesn't mean that they are. They could be off because there is a pin dowel between the cam shaft and the pulley to adjust the timing. If somebody move the pins to service the engine without use a dial gauge on the pistons (TDC) and also the dial on the cam lubes with the correct shims, you could easy make a mistake. (These engines don't have any mark on the crankshaft for TDC, either).

Camshaft /phase sensor fitted to bank 1 exhaust if issue or mechanical issue should affect ignition timing in both banks ? What is the affect if disconnected and then engine started.

Yes, I only have one cam sensor on this engine and I didn't disconnect it yet. just because the difficult access.

In you earlier post there were cylinder misfire codes have they been cleared ?

Yes, I cleared the codes but they appear again since I make all the kind of test on the engine. I wish to have the car outside and drive it. The car had been sitting at the corner of the showroom and unfortunately I couldn't let it run for long periods. Right now the car is at the end of the shop and I can't wait to have the chance to clear the codes and read them again

Previouslsly misfire Bank 1 cyls 2 +5 and Bank 2 cyls 7+12 (also cyl 11). If Ignition wasted spark these cylinders may share same coils . And coil output may be weak and or affecting the ignition timing as coil driver attempts to fier the coil ?

The engine has two coil packs with 6 outputs each one of them. I Know that one of my coworkers swapped the coils for a F550 ones which are using the same exactly model. The car did not change at all and then I checked the primary vs the secondary pico test and it was ok too.

One of the things that I would like to test is the transistor power unit output vs the crankshaft sensor and compare the both banks. What do you think?
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Re: Error On Cylinder Balance Test

Postby DebbieSidera » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:51 am

Hi Guys,

Is long time since last post but as I told I'm doing this project only to practice...
This time is to make an update of something that came to my mind. Some days ago I posted these readings of a compression test. The waves were weird and nobody had a clue of this thing.
Ok. It's enough! It couldn't be a mystery, I worked in engines way more complex all my life... (the issue here is that I can't take this engine apart... I'm doing these only to learn about my oscilloscope).
I took a Ferrari 330_GTS engine that I have apart without the heads. It has the flywheel, the crankshaft and the pistons, though. I sat there and I turned it manually. I measured the whole thing during a complete 720°... I went home with smoke coming out of my ears... I can't understand it!!! I took a spare book of the F330 and a F456. They have a crankshaft with exactly same design. C'mon. I've seen these engines forever, why is not working??
Ready to go to bed, but I took the owners manual with me. and, Guess what??? the F456 has an engine V12 V65° !!! DONE!! :mrgreen:
Please guys, tell me that you think the same as me. The F456 crankshaft is divided by 120° with two pistons connected to each pin (I already posted the crankshaft diagram too). So, the numbers don't match! :shock:

mastertech02 wrote:
I am having difficulty in understanding how the ignition timing can be out on one bank and not the other ? The 5.2motronic has 2 crank sensors spaced 60 deg apart


Dennis, You are also right. But this destroyed my theory. :? I've counted even the teeth of the flywheel and the two crankshaft sensors are 60° apart. and the flywheel only has one cut/mark. HOW??? how is it suppose to work??? I mean by the graphic you can see how the spark is ATDC.

Thanks to share your knowledge
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Re: Error On Cylinder Balance Test

Postby Fat Freddy » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:39 am

Hi Debbie.

I mean by the graphic you can see how the spark is ATDC.


Be careful. The spark is not necessarily after TDC, it's after peak starter current draw.

What would happen if the exhaust cam was retarded.

Just thinking out load and could be way off the mark.

i The engine would be compressing one cylinder and also compressing a cylinder with a retarded exhaust valve. Increasing current draw.

ii Valve overlap would be longer possibly increasing cylinder fill there fore higher comp/current draw.

iii Immediately after TDC we would have a cylinder filled with a lot of compressed air, that would be aiding the starter there fore reducing current draw.

So Debbie until I see the WPS waveform I'll put a bet on bank 1 retarded exhaust cam. That's just my theory at the moment but I'm sure as I think about it I'll think of something that will pop my theory, but what the hell.

HTH
FF
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