PicoScope 7 Automotive
Available for Windows, Mac, and Linux, the next evolution of our diagnostic scope software is now available.
Renault Kangoo II 2010 - No crank/No start
-
JoaoGaudencio
- Newbie
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Tue May 14, 2019 8:41 am
Renault Kangoo II 2010 - No crank/No start
Hi to all,
I'm creating this topic to ask some opinions to solve this situation! I will create a detailed case study with photos when I fix this.
So, the history of this vehicle is simple.
From one moment to other, the vehicle stopped. No crank and no start.
He went from mechanic to mechanic and no one fix this and has been in the same situation since last year.
And now, I want to resolve this situation with your help and with Pico.
So, this vehicle is a Renault Kangoo II 1.5dci 2010.
Have DTC: P019062 - Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor "A" Circuit.
The dashboard was disassembled to access the modules and wiring
I checked the continuities and voltages and everything seems to be OK except for F3 on the E6 module. That PIN when we put the key in position 3 (to use the starter) the F3 does not send any voltage to the starter. And ofc, this is why the starter does not work.
(See wiring diagram in attach)
- S176 Ignition switch OK, it sends 12v+ to 260 F12.
- PIN B6 (E34) receives 12v+
- PIN D9 (E34) receives 12v+ all the fuses are OK.
- PIN A40 (E34) CAN-H continuity to PIN B8 (E6) OK
- PIN A20 (E34) CAN-L continuity to PIN B1 (E6) OK
- PIN F6 (E6) receives 12v+
- PIN F3 (E6) always have 0v. This PIN should have 12v when we put the key on starter position (3).
If I put 12v directly at the starter (PIN A1 - M56) it works perfectly. (only cranking but no starting)
They already changed the module E6 and it's the same. (I put the original module E6).
Immobilizer it's ok too.
Now, the question is, why?
Can be CAN Line signal? Do you have some references from CAN Signal to compare?
Regards!
I'm creating this topic to ask some opinions to solve this situation! I will create a detailed case study with photos when I fix this.
So, the history of this vehicle is simple.
From one moment to other, the vehicle stopped. No crank and no start.
He went from mechanic to mechanic and no one fix this and has been in the same situation since last year.
And now, I want to resolve this situation with your help and with Pico.
So, this vehicle is a Renault Kangoo II 1.5dci 2010.
Have DTC: P019062 - Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor "A" Circuit.
The dashboard was disassembled to access the modules and wiring
I checked the continuities and voltages and everything seems to be OK except for F3 on the E6 module. That PIN when we put the key in position 3 (to use the starter) the F3 does not send any voltage to the starter. And ofc, this is why the starter does not work.
(See wiring diagram in attach)
- S176 Ignition switch OK, it sends 12v+ to 260 F12.
- PIN B6 (E34) receives 12v+
- PIN D9 (E34) receives 12v+ all the fuses are OK.
- PIN A40 (E34) CAN-H continuity to PIN B8 (E6) OK
- PIN A20 (E34) CAN-L continuity to PIN B1 (E6) OK
- PIN F6 (E6) receives 12v+
- PIN F3 (E6) always have 0v. This PIN should have 12v when we put the key on starter position (3).
If I put 12v directly at the starter (PIN A1 - M56) it works perfectly. (only cranking but no starting)
They already changed the module E6 and it's the same. (I put the original module E6).
Immobilizer it's ok too.
Now, the question is, why?
Can be CAN Line signal? Do you have some references from CAN Signal to compare?
Regards!
- Attachments
-
- Diagram.pdf
- (157.98 KiB) Downloaded 559 times
Re: Renault Kangoo II 2010 - No crank/No start
Post your can h and l scope captures, 500 ms/div 5MS at least 1 page.
-
javierlopez478
- Newbie
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:46 pm
Re: Renault Kangoo II 2010 - No crank/No start
Good afternoon
You have checked if you have more breakdowns in other units inmo uch etc
You have checked if you have more breakdowns in other units inmo uch etc
-
JoaoGaudencio
- Newbie
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Tue May 14, 2019 8:41 am
Re: Renault Kangoo II 2010 - No crank/No start
Hi liviu2004,
In attach I send the captures from CAN with 500 ms/div 5MS
In attach I send the captures from CAN with 500 ms/div 5MS
- Attachments
-
- CAN500msdiv5MS.psdata
- (23.47 MiB) Downloaded 405 times
-
JoaoGaudencio
- Newbie
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Tue May 14, 2019 8:41 am
Re: Renault Kangoo II 2010 - No crank/No start
#javierlopez478
Thank you for your answer.
They already test it. Immo looks to work properly
Here we have more captures with different times.
Anyone have some good CAN LINE waveform for this vehicle?
Thanks!
Thank you for your answer.
They already test it. Immo looks to work properly
Here we have more captures with different times.
Anyone have some good CAN LINE waveform for this vehicle?
Thanks!
- Attachments
-
- CAN.rar
- (6.96 MiB) Downloaded 368 times
-
Steve Smith
- Pico Staff Member
- Posts: 1594
- Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:22 am
Re: Renault Kangoo II 2010 - No crank/No start
Hello and thank you for the post and sharing on our forum
Just reading through the post could I follow up on the original DTC P019062
Would you have a “Detection condition” for the code from the VM?
i.e. What are the conditions that occur for DTC P019062 to occur?
Could I ask if this code is always evident and still evident now?
I am trying to determine if this code is relevant
It sounds like the non-crank and non-start occurred at the same time?
Could you confirm if this symptom occurred whilst driving or when trying to restart the vehicle after switching off. (i.e. customer parked the vehicle OK, then when trying to start this fault occurred)
Please forgive all the questions, I would like to build a picture of the events leading up to the breakdown
I ask them because I am not sure why we are looking at CAN at this stage
With that said I have looked at CAN500msdiv5MS and can see periodic errors throughout the decode table. (See below)
The physical layer does look OK, so “structurally” the CAN circuit (with engine off) looks good
The errors above may well be relevant but more information is required
Can you communicate with all ECU’s on this vehicle?
Can you obtain comprehensible serial data or are any of the data (parameters) missing or displaying invalid characters (e.g. Fuel Pressure = #######)
At this stage I would keep the periodic CAN errors in mind but not become consumed with CAN but gather more information surrounding DTC P019062 if this code is still relevant?
A running Kangoo II capture of CAN at 500 ms/div with 5MS would most certainly help, I have checked the library for Kangoo but the one I can see is a very fast time frame and I believe one of your uploads (Thank you for sharing)
I hope some of the above helps
Just reading through the post could I follow up on the original DTC P019062
Would you have a “Detection condition” for the code from the VM?
i.e. What are the conditions that occur for DTC P019062 to occur?
Could I ask if this code is always evident and still evident now?
I am trying to determine if this code is relevant
It sounds like the non-crank and non-start occurred at the same time?
Could you confirm if this symptom occurred whilst driving or when trying to restart the vehicle after switching off. (i.e. customer parked the vehicle OK, then when trying to start this fault occurred)
Please forgive all the questions, I would like to build a picture of the events leading up to the breakdown
I ask them because I am not sure why we are looking at CAN at this stage
With that said I have looked at CAN500msdiv5MS and can see periodic errors throughout the decode table. (See below)
- Image 1
The physical layer does look OK, so “structurally” the CAN circuit (with engine off) looks good
The errors above may well be relevant but more information is required
Can you communicate with all ECU’s on this vehicle?
Can you obtain comprehensible serial data or are any of the data (parameters) missing or displaying invalid characters (e.g. Fuel Pressure = #######)
At this stage I would keep the periodic CAN errors in mind but not become consumed with CAN but gather more information surrounding DTC P019062 if this code is still relevant?
A running Kangoo II capture of CAN at 500 ms/div with 5MS would most certainly help, I have checked the library for Kangoo but the one I can see is a very fast time frame and I believe one of your uploads (Thank you for sharing)
I hope some of the above helps
Re: Renault Kangoo II 2010 - No crank/No start
To me, CAN layer looks fine. A message failed here and there would normally not be an issue. I believe you need to fix P0190 62 before this engine is allowed to start.
Re: Renault Kangoo II 2010 - No crank/No start
@JoaoGaudencio
Code behaviour criteria below. I believe this diagnostic about non start is clarified, now for you to see why this code showed up. You need to move on from that diagram, no longer necessary.
If P0190 is present, the engine stops and is impossible to restart. Malfunction indicator lights up (level 1).
Code behaviour criteria below. I believe this diagnostic about non start is clarified, now for you to see why this code showed up. You need to move on from that diagram, no longer necessary.
If P0190 is present, the engine stops and is impossible to restart. Malfunction indicator lights up (level 1).
- Attachments
-
-
JoaoGaudencio
- Newbie
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Tue May 14, 2019 8:41 am
Re: Renault Kangoo II 2010 - No crank/No start
Hi Steve and liviu2004!
Thank you so much for your answers.
This Renault has not started for more than 6 months and the history of this car was confused.
"They" replaced several sensors including injectors (I don't understand why).
Several people, "electricians" tried to find the problem without success, they just ended up damaging the wiring, took out necessary fuses ... an incredible mess.
I opted to check the CAN waveform because the BCU was very "messed up" and it might not even be the right one for the car.
But I noticed that the CAN lines looked good, like you guys saw too.
However, I decided to create this post to ask for your opinion and in this case, give the solution.
After I repaired all the wiring, fuses, the DF007 error remained.
And then yes, the vehicle would not start without this sensor in good condition.
I checked all the wiring from the unit (ECU) to the sensor and everything was OK.
After this, I removed the sensor, which caused the fault (rail pressure) and immediately verified that the sensor was not compatible with the car!!!
Unfortunately, Renault only sells the sensor with the rail! but we found a used sensor and rail in good condition.
After assembling, the car starts without any problem!
I'll upload more reference waveforms for our library!
Thank you so much for your help.
#PicoInTheHouse
Thank you so much for your answers.
This Renault has not started for more than 6 months and the history of this car was confused.
"They" replaced several sensors including injectors (I don't understand why).
Several people, "electricians" tried to find the problem without success, they just ended up damaging the wiring, took out necessary fuses ... an incredible mess.
I opted to check the CAN waveform because the BCU was very "messed up" and it might not even be the right one for the car.
But I noticed that the CAN lines looked good, like you guys saw too.
However, I decided to create this post to ask for your opinion and in this case, give the solution.
After I repaired all the wiring, fuses, the DF007 error remained.
And then yes, the vehicle would not start without this sensor in good condition.
I checked all the wiring from the unit (ECU) to the sensor and everything was OK.
After this, I removed the sensor, which caused the fault (rail pressure) and immediately verified that the sensor was not compatible with the car!!!
Unfortunately, Renault only sells the sensor with the rail! but we found a used sensor and rail in good condition.
After assembling, the car starts without any problem!
I'll upload more reference waveforms for our library!
Thank you so much for your help.
#PicoInTheHouse