8-Channel Oscilloscope for Automotive?

[victor2k]

Hello,
This is a good news,when a 14-bit oscilloscope will be released for automotive?
Best regards

[Technician]

May I ask, what would be significantly improved over a 12 bit?

[PicoKev]

2 Bits.....

[victor2k]

2 Bits.....

Sometimes it matters that 2 bits...for a lower ground noise,for a better resolution
some years has passed from 4223/4423 release
Maybe it's time to return to a 8 bit scope?

[Iver]

All the Negativity ! Is it really necessary.

If you are hell bent on the additional 2 bits then dont buy it. Not a difficult decision to make ?

I think it is great / superb / ecstatic ... that we asked and pico delivered the 8 Channel Automotive.

Reasonably Priced too. What is not to like about that then ?

And they made it absolutely CLEAR that

The two and four channel PicoScope 4225 and 4425 are our recommended products for general workshop use. The floating ground design, ConnectDetect™ and 200V inputs makes for a very robust and easy to use product.

For experienced oscilloscope users involved in training, vehicle design and complex diagnostics the 8 channel PicoScope 4823 may be a suitable choice. Rather than floating grounds which require a ground connection per channel the 4823 has common grounds which are protected by self resetting fuses.

CLICK ON THIS

[Steve Smith]

PicoScope 4823: Should you be excited or scratching your head?
With reference to Dmitriy YouTube video here and the 4823

Thank you Dmitriy for the video and for raising your concerns surrounding the Automotive 4823 8 Channel Scope. One of the great features of social media is “transparency” where we can all view and share thoughts/experiences, be they positive or otherwise and your video is the perfect example.

What you have pointed out with the specifications of the 4823 is correct and these must seem like a stark contradiction to the current generation 4225 & 4425 models with their high input voltage and floating inputs capability. Floating Inputs

You are also correct that the 4823 model is the 4824 Test & Measurement (T&M) Scope but now with resettable input fuses to protect the ground path along with full compatibility to PicoDiagnostics, PicoScope 6 Automotive Software and the Waveform Library.

The fundamental reason why we advise against the use of T&M products within our automotive environment is the lack of resettable fuses between BNC channel grounds (T&M common ground Scopes) These fuses protect the scope and test equipment from erroneous test lead connection such as reverse polarity, which is easy done during the heat of diagnosis

This is now resolved thanks to the addition of resettable fuses which have been in use with all our automotive common ground scopes (3000 & 4000 series) between 2005 -2014. As a direct result we can now approve the 4823 scope for automotive use.

I must add here that all the above devices (regardless of age) are better scopes today than when purchased thanks to the software development team here at Pico and remain compatible with current software

The secondary reason why we advise against the use of T&M scopes within the automotive industry is the input voltage as you have correctly indicated and I agree, 50 V feels like a huge compromise.

This of course is resolved with the use of attenuation which will be frequent by comparison to those who use the current 4000 series scopes but not the previous generation devices mentioned above.

So why common ground and why only 50 V input (protected to 100 V) for an automotive scope?

There has been a growing demand for many years from Diagnostic Specialists and Vehicle Manufacturers for 5 & 6 channel devices, here is the forum post you referred to Dmitriy and I think we can all agree there have been numerous occasions where 5 channels would have been perfect?

With that said, to create a dedicated automotive scope utilising the architecture of the 4225 & 4425 models (High Voltage & Floating input) would require external power (rather than USB alone) and consumed valuable development resources for existing and future automotive products. Therefore we took the opportunity to offer the 4823 based on minimum changes from the 4824 to meet growing demand from specialised users but with a number of compromises:

Lower Input Voltage (50 V protected to 100 V) Resolved with attenuation
Common Ground (May or may not be considered a compromise depending on user)
Sample Rate 40MS/s with all channels active (Block Mode)
Sample Rate 1.25 MS/s with all channels active (Streaming Mode)
No ConnectDetect™ feature
No Hardware Filter (Software Filter used as an alternative)
No Frequency Coupling (Maths used as an alternative)

Further information on the current 4000 series PicoScope can be found here


Reading all the above certainly brings home a number of features we have taken for granted with the 4225 & 4425 models but the key strengths of the 4823 is of course 8 channels linked to our automotive software with 12 bit resolution, 20 MHz bandwidth, 256 MS buffer memory and SuperSpeed USB 3.0

To quote from a real world application of the 4823, I mentioned in this month’s case study“the acquisition of reference waveforms requires a robust technique to ensure that the timing correlates with the existing captures, and this has the potential to introduce a variable. Diagnosis commands that all variables are kept to a minimum, and from my perspective, there have been numerous occasions when six channels would have been perfect.”


Why have you just released this product when the 4824 has been available for years?

We had experienced an issue with limited component supplies that were only sufficient to meet the needs of our 4824 demand. We have now resolved that issue with an updated design for 4824 and can now offer a 4823 device to our industry. A number of automotive customers have purchased the 4824 in previous years as it meets their application needs using the PicoScope 6 software and this is another driving factor that has convinced Pico there is a true demand for an 8 channel solution

From my perspective as a Technician, the 8 channel scope has been my go to scope for case studies and VM support requests for a number of years (even in 4824 guise) where diagnostic time has been limited and multiple inputs have been crucial (V8 & V6 Quad Cams being a typical examples)

When not travelling with an 8 channel device I have lost count how many times I wish I had captured specific signals simultaneously with others. For example: CAN High Speed with CAN Low Speed networks accompanied with ignition & injection! Here something has to be sacrificed in order to capture the intrusion and effects on the CAN networks from ignition or injection simultaneously!

Having an 8 channel option removes channel anxiety for sure and in the real world, the use of 8 channels simultaneously will be infrequent but the use of 5 & 6 channels will be regular with the knowledge that you have another 2 channels for additional correlation measurements. I personally have found that because we you have 8 channels, why not use them? This often reveals behaviour within adjacent circuits that you had not considered because it was previously impossible to capture simultaneously.

If you are predominantly a new or intermediate user of automotive oscilloscopes then the 4823 is not the right scope for you. I am often asked by customers which scope/kit do I recommend?

My reply has never changed and that is to go for 4 channels, to support you as your knowledge and confidence grows and to anyone who wishes to purchase a scope kit is to go for the 4 Channel Standard Kit if your budget allows. I personally feel this kit has you covered for a vast array of measurements that will serve you proud for years to come

Sorry to go on here Dmitriy (I know I can waffle) and thank you for your video once again because we must be challenged on everything we do. I hope this has helped answer a number of questions raised by your video and hopefully a few others along the way.

If I can refer once again to my forum post back in 2014 my final sentence mentions, “When all is said and done, the 4824 is most certainly a scope to be reckoned with, and so with careful use, by a knowledgeable operative, any circuit can be measured (safety first) in any application.”

The future is bright and getting brighter with more automotive products to come

Take care……Steve

[Autonerdz]

Nice write up, Steve.

One correction needed:

Sample Rate 10MS/s with all channels active (Which remains impressive)

It's 40MS/s with all eight active is it not?

[liviu2004]

When newsletter came in my inbox, and I saw 8 channel automotive scope, I said, I will bite the bullet. But seeing the specs, mm, I cooled down. So usb is the limiting factor at the end.
Can pico go for an ethernet based automotive scope and power up an 4825 scope with an internal li-ion battery, I am fine with increased thickness, and have a possibility to connect to car battery or aux 12V socket?
I would buy that for sure!

[Iver]

You guys are being hard on the Pico Guys. Not Nice.

I still run a 3000 series and have for 15 years. Floating Grounds - Blaa Blaaa - All White Noise to me. Don't need them. Get along just fine. A technician that struggles to "Work Around" may be many things, but he is NO TECHNICIAN in my Humble Opinion.



Just be grateful for the offering, you don't have a gun to your head forcing you to buy it..


If you really dont like it then build your own scope, clearly the energy you use to moan will go along way into that project succeeding

Post a link here when you are done andyou are well on your way to the money.

Kind Regards

[Technician]

PicoScope 4823: Should you be excited or scratching your head?

The future is bright and getting brighter with more automotive products to come

Take care……Steve

I'm all eyes and ears please do tell?