Error On Cylinder Balance Test

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Re: Error On Cylinder Balance Test

Postby Alan » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:00 am

Hi Debbie,

Please could you either upload some data files or email them to support@picotech.com (mention this thread in the email). We can then analyze the data to see if the issue is specific to these Ferrari flat plane crank engines.


Thanks
Alan
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Re: Error On Cylinder Balance Test

Postby DebbieSidera » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:34 am

Hi Alan,

Today I took the readings on the F456 and the F360. Ones again and exactly like the last time they end with the ERROR on the Engine Balancing test. First of all is very difficult to get any good reading (during on the Engine Balancing Setup). I've tried to connect the leads on the Alternator, starter, battery, everywhere... Use loads as the headlights, defroster, AC,... but nothing really works. Now maybe i'm thinking that i got a bad oscilloscope...

The compression test is about the same. It doesn't work. You can compare some of the values with the manual compression test that I read with my regular compression gauge.

I'm fixing the problems as always... switching coils, switching ECU's... and following the the issues one by one... but i really would like take profit and learn to use my PICO...
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Re: Error On Cylinder Balance Test

Postby Alan » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:41 am

Hi Debbie,

Have you sent the files to support? If so I will personally check them.

It is possible both cylinder balance and compression test will have issues with flat plane crank engines but as its pretty much only Ferrari who use them on road cars we need the data to investigate.

If the scope is working OK in PicoScope (oscilloscope software) or indeed if the battery test is working OK in PicoDiagnostics then you can be sure the scope is working OK.

Regards
Alan
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Re: Error On Cylinder Balance Test

Postby DebbieSidera » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:42 am

1997 Ferrari 456_GTA:

The car came a bunch of problems at the shop after seat for a while in the owners house.

Engine with bad idle.
CODES:
0300. Random/ multiple misfire cylinders codes both banks
0311. Cyl 11 misfire
0305. Cyl 05 misfire
0312. Cyl 12 misfire
0302. Cyl 02 misfire
0307. Cyl 07 misfire
1625 CAN BUS/Gearbox
1247 Lambda IC CJ I25, internal check (bank2,sensor1)

Manual compression test
1. 210
2. 212
3. 220
4. 228
5. 220
6. 228
7. 215
8. 226
9. 217
10. 215
11. 202
12. 220

Radiator leak.
Error Brake light is ON.
Error Suspension light is ON.
Attachments
131202_CompressionTest_002Open throttle.pddata
Engine Compression Test (Open throttle)
(70.55 KiB) Downloaded 223 times
131202_CompressionTest_001Close throttle.pddata
Engine Compression Test. (Close throttle)
(69.23 KiB) Downloaded 193 times
131202_CylinderBalance_001Error.pddata
Engine Balancing test
(1.95 MiB) Downloaded 206 times
Last edited by DebbieSidera on Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Error On Cylinder Balance Test

Postby DebbieSidera » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:57 am

1999 Ferrari 360 :

-Engine has a flat crankshaft V8-

The car has a problem with bad idle went the engine is cold for the first 15-30 seconds. At the same time you can heard a random misfires in the plenum intake
stored code P1160 (Engine running lean)

Delete codes and car go home

next day car come back same code
Freeze data: long term fuel trim 22%

Check manual compression OK.
Change spark plugs for new ones.
Check injectors and voltage vs current test OK
Check coils and secondary vs primary test OK
Check vacuum leaks OK. (I'm still have a question with two electric valves for the fuel evaporation system. I' going to repeat the test plugging them.)
Check oil pressure (hydraulic valve tappets)
Check gas pressure in both banks ( run, idle, overnight values correct).
Check secondary air circuit (air pump function)
Check exhaust leaks and check valve.

Now the idle is good all the time (I don't know why...)but the P1160 code still there.

Thanks Alan!
Attachments
131202_CompressionTest_001Close throttle.pddata
Compression test (close throttle)
(87.74 KiB) Downloaded 203 times
131202_CompressionTest_001Open throttle.pddata
Compression test (open throttle)
(89.34 KiB) Downloaded 209 times
131202_CylinderBalance_001Error.pddata
Engine Balancing test
(1.58 MiB) Downloaded 199 times
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F456 Results

Postby DebbieSidera » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:41 am

Hi. Well today I got home very late but I'm so happy because I get some results with the oscilloscope. I did not have the chance to 'play' with the Pico on well running cars, so I had to learn on some 'bad scenarios' and I got confused between my skills and the oscilloscope's greatnesses...

As you can see, my first try was on the Pico Diagnostics software without any results. It gave me an Error in the engine balancing test and also it showed me some death cylinders without compression.

I switched to the Picoscope 6 software with the 600A Clamp on the battery positive wire and the PP178 on each individual igntion wire...And 'Voalá!'

Apparently the ignition event on the 7-to-12 bank occurs before TDC and on the order 1-to-6 bank the ignition event occurs just after TDC. The waves have some noises but maybe it was just 'cause my beginner setting. By my math I think is about 5 degrees.

Tomorrow I'm going to play with the ignition timing elements or... Could it may be the cramshafts are off, right? Unluckily I don't have any previous history of this car...
As Mike use to say: It was fun.

Debbie
Attachments
Cylinder#12.psdata
(500.6 KiB) Downloaded 213 times
Cylinder#09.psdata
(498.32 KiB) Downloaded 200 times
Cylinder#07.psdata
(496.93 KiB) Downloaded 210 times
Cylinder#06.psdata
(483.03 KiB) Downloaded 209 times
Cylinder#03.psdata
(479.14 KiB) Downloaded 182 times
Cylinder#01.psdata
(495.62 KiB) Downloaded 208 times
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Re: Error On Cylinder Balance Test

Postby Fat Freddy » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:15 am

Never been a fan of PD. Nice idea but results are too unreliable.

Could it may be the cramshafts are off, right?


It sure looks like something like that. Do you own a WPS?

Can you do another capture with more time on the screen, synced to #1 and give the firing order. I want to have a closer look at something. :wink:

I don't know Ferrari at all so may not be much help.

FF
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Longer reading.

Postby DebbieSidera » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:50 am

Hi Fat,

Thanks for your interest to follow my work on this F456_GTA.
Sorry about my English. What is a WSP?

Here there is a better and longer reading on cylinder #01.
The firing order on this engine is: 1,12,5,8,3,10,6,7,2,11,4,9. A later model F456_M came with another firing order (they said for a smoother running).

Friday night, nobody around the shop, it's the perfect time to 'play' around with the oscilloscope!

Debbie
Attachments
Cylinder#01_long-running.psdata
longer reading on cylinder #01
(540.23 KiB) Downloaded 196 times
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Re: Error On Cylinder Balance Test

Postby DebbieSidera » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:33 am

Hi, 'I fall in love with the Pico oscilloscope.'

Friday night report:

The engine only has one cam sensor and for the ignition timing has two crank sensors on the flywheel. I switched them and I repeated the test with the same results.
Then, after looking at the wave forms I saw that the period between the sparks (no matter which cylinder) is always the same. But as you can see the frequency between the cylinders TDC is not the same. the 1-to-6 are very close to the other bank cylinders. If you pay attention on the waves they look almost like a M and then there is a long period without compression. During this period the waves look like a V.
So, the 1-to-6 bank TDC occurs too early. Tomorrow I'm going to remove the cam covers. We will see how it ends!

Debbie
Attachments
F456_GTA_Firing_Order.jpg
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Re: Error On Cylinder Balance Test

Postby KimAndersen » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:11 pm

Hi

Have you established whether the engine is running lean or rich by measuring the output signal from the oxygen sensor on bank 1 as well on bank 2.

If its not the case I´ll recommend that you do so. It will give you a good baseline regarding the next diagnostic step you should take.

The misfire codes you are getting are they present all the time ?

Is this Ferrari F456 GTA equipped with a Bosch Motronic 5.2 ECU ?

Regards
Kim
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