Hyundai Santa Fe' Timing waveform

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Re: Hyundai Santa Fe' Timing waveform

Postby Avdr » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:21 pm

Hi Gruss,

I think its fair to assume not, so far as the cooler being cleaned out is concerned.
I know the EGR was not replaced with brandnew. Getting the EGR valve off will be my first angle of attack come saturday.
Really I need to get the inlet mani off and cleaned too, I will have to consult with the original garage first though - as those kind of jobs may be something he would prefer to do in his time rather than on my time.

There are two physical temp probes, one before turbo and one before DPF. I did have an anomaly at one point while looking at live data, in that the DPF probe was showing hotter than turbo, didn't seem to add up to me unless some kind of regen was occuring?
I checked connections for probes, and found it would be impossible to invert them, in the course of which I unplugged each probe KOEO and got 127c - seems to be the lowest reading capable of being displayed.
After this procedure, the turbo probe now reads consitantly hotter than DPF, typical temps aren't that fresh in my mind now, but I would say anything from 250-400c for turbo at idle, and lower for DPF seems to come to mind - will confirm on saturday.
Additionally in live data there appeared to be a further reading for CAT temp, which matched the DPF temp all the time - makes sense.

Deffinitely shows EGR of 5% at idle. After a short period of fast idle, once allowed to tick over this is more like 40% for a period of say 10seconds, before coming back down to 5%. Engine note changes accordingly.

One thing that is worrying me a little is, how can there be SO much smoke after DPF, clearly its not doing its job, can a DPF be overwhelmed and start passing soot? I fear it might have to be replaced? Currently it shows a soot amount of 7.45g.

Thanks
Andy
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Re: Hyundai Santa Fe' Timing waveform

Postby GRUSS » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:38 pm

Andy

I've only been with Kia for 6 months but I do know they have problems with the items I mentioned. Just checked a few course notes and the egr figures do seem correct. You may have mentioned this before but can you see egr and maf relation when the egr opens? The maf should decrease as you probably know.

Plenty of software updates available for various egr problems, what scan tool are you using btw?

I would certainly be looking towards the dpf once you have ensured egr is clean and your personally happy with. Never rely on other garages reports ( been tripped up there before)

I can check for any relavent tsbs for the dtcs you have if you like ?

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Re: Hyundai Santa Fe' Timing waveform

Postby taho » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:11 am

Hello!
I advise to you to take into consideration possibility of malfunction of diesel injectors and to look in this direction. :!: At what outwardly injectors can look as quite serviceable. The best decision to put new injectors and to register adaptation codes in ECU.
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Re: Hyundai Santa Fe' Timing waveform

Postby Avdr » Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:48 am

Gruss, Thanks for checking up on that. There is an offset at MAFM when EGR is operational. Havn't sat down and worked out any figures but it is certainly proportional to amout of EGR requested. Ie. More EGR = Less fresh air

Using the texa navigator in the 'bosch data mode' - for want of a better phrase. I mean I'm not using EOBD, except for an occasional DTC check to make sure there are not differences between fault codes in bosch and EOBD.
Re: The updates, I know the local hyundai dealer had already been approached and didn't want to get involved with the car - that was before it came to me. I want to avoid updates for the moment, as to all intents and purposes the car was perfect before the cylinder head was removed - at the moment I want to work along a hardware issue that could've arrisen from that job.
Would appreciate any tsb's you have though :D

taho, I had wondered whether the injector nozzles could've been damaged and are spraying poorly or dribbling myself. This is my first job from this particular garage and I don't know how he operates yet. Injectors may well be something to look at in the end, but first I want to be sure that everything else has been checked first.

Thanks
Andy

EDIT: Gruss, Do you have access to any technical data on those waveforms, I just wonder if there could be a keyway issue on crankshaft or camshaft sprocket, hence taking those waveforms. Ofcourse ultimately I might just have to take the belt and sprockets off and check.
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Re: Hyundai Santa Fe' Timing waveform

Postby KimAndersen » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:54 pm

Hi Avdr

From the image showing injection timing at idle there seems to be three injection event - a pilot-injection a main injection and finally a post injection.

With the post-injection in mind - it must be a regeneration mode and are therefore making an extra diesel injection after ( Top Dead Centre ) to raise the temperature in the catalytic converter.

You mentioned that you got some unstable readings from the temp sensor before the turbo while you was looking at some live data from your serial tester.

I would like to turn it upside down and say - what are the conditions to get out of the regeneration mode if it's really in regeneration mode !!!

I have a theory or a thought about this subject - perhaps it´s the temperature probes before and after DPF there is sending misleading readings to the ecu and the ecu is unable to get out of regeneration mode - because the temperature is to low and therefore keep on the post injection after TDC.

Just a thought.

Kim
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Re: Hyundai Santa Fe' Timing waveform

Postby Avdr » Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:26 pm

Hi Kim, appreciate the input.
I would've thought that just turning the engine off would be enough to render regen mode inactive. Given it requires such a specific set of paramaters to come into effect, and to my knowledge should never occur at idle.

I had a look early on in the job at the 'Automotive' menu of picoscope, and looking at a sample waveform of a bosch injector, its identical to my waveform, so I'm not sure it is a post injection we are seeing, perhaps more of a stratified injection event.
I can't be certain without doing the maths but looking at the wavefoms of mine I think the injection is over before TDC.

I will try running with both temp probes disconnected to rule it out.

Thanks
Andy
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Re: Hyundai Santa Fe' Timing waveform

Postby Avdr » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:01 pm

Little update here...
I made a start on stripping EGR side of things down on saturday but only got it finished today.
EGR cooler removed, blown out with airline, no real issues with that.
EGR valve removed, inspected, smallest 'chink' of light around valve seat - nothing worth talking about - cleaned anyway for good measure.
Re-assemble, and as expected no change.
MAFM still reads 450- 475ml/stroke, car still drives fine except for the smoke.

Pretty much at the end of the road with it. Clearly there is a DPF problem, still getting limp mode due to high pressure in exhaust. So DPF must be blocked.
Removed the pre DPF pressure hose from the sensor, and managed to drive considerable distance without getting limp mode, the code P0472 was logged - pressure low, but this didn't cause limp.

Found some play in turbo spindle so going to suggest the original garage has a look at
1. Sort the DPF out
2. Address turbo spindle play

I'm satisifed that its 'electrically' sound. I think :?
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Re: Hyundai Santa Fe' Timing waveform

Postby antthecat » Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:46 pm

If that Maf reading at idle is with no egr command then your Maf is knackered or a blocked inlet, also a knackered Maf would cause premature blocking and/or inacurrate dpf load values.

My instinct is your Maf has fell over.

If you are wondering why I keep going on about air mass value their is some useful info posted on testing diesel Maf's on UKAT. It's all to do with mg/stroke and cc of engine.
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Re: Hyundai Santa Fe' Timing waveform

Postby Robski » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:02 pm

It's all to do with mg/stroke and cc of engine.


VE - volumetric efficiency .............
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Re: Hyundai Santa Fe' Timing waveform

Postby Avdr » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:31 pm

Robski wrote:
It's all to do with mg/stroke and cc of engine.


VE - volumetric efficiency .............


My thoughts exactly.
STOP THE PRESS

The cars owner phoned the garage today and got forwarded onto me, just had an interesting conversation. It turns out the rebuild didn't go as smoothly as I was lead to believe. The owner is no mechanic but worked in the engine plant at vauxhalls, so gets the basics.
It seems a problem occured with the camshaft sprocket dowel, and also he thinks something with the camshaft sensor reluctor.
Apparently the head has been totally stripped while it was off to repair some kind of damage, caused during the inital rebuild.
I've suddenly got my enthusiasm back...
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