Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI, hard to start,rough idle for 3-4 sec.

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Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI, hard to start,rough idle for 3-4 sec.

Postby autodiagnose » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:38 pm

Hi

I need some hint and tips on this car: Renault Kangoo 1,5 DCI, modelyear 2007. Firing order 1-3-4-2. Delphi injection system, common rail

History; This car have been placed on a local Reanult dealer for about 5 month :roll: . The car stopped on the road and it was not possible to get the engine started again. The dealer have done some fault finding and used too much time on this car. The dealer told the customer to replace the harness of the engine, but the customer say no more faultfinding based on the metod: replace parts until it works.
The problem is still the same. After several month the custome ask me to do some measurement with my Pico Scope. At first I logged some fault codes pointing on fuel rail pressure. Measured the leakage on the injectors, injector syl. 1 was defektive. Changed the injector and now the fuel pressure rise to 307 bar using the starter motor. Now I though the problem was cleared an I tried to start the engine. No,no the engine don`t start , sometimes it fired and run rought for about 3-4 sec. It was still a problem, what now?? I "loaded" my wondeful Pico scope, my diagnostic computer and the first look sensor". Connected ch. A of Pico scope to the first look sensor (blue) and ch. B to the lead of injector no. 1(red) Cranked the engine and then stored the wave form on my computer. It seems that there can be something wrong with the compression on two of the sylinders. Timing belt, crankshaft/camshaft out of position? Or broken headgasket?

Will some of you please reply me and give me some comments?

Att. scope picture

Best regards
Sven Arild Mortensen
email: sa-morte@online.no
NORWAY
Attachments
Renault Kangoo 1,5DCI kranking,not starting, pic.2.psdata
Renault Kangoo 2007, 1.5DCI no start
(912.71 KiB) Downloaded 326 times
Last edited by autodiagnose on Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI, none start

Postby Robski » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:03 pm

Hello Sven

Nice capture my friend :wink:

The FLS is not one of my strong points but it does look with the negative deviation that a misfire has possibly taken place.

Could you possibly grab another capture with cranking current ( relative compression ) & also the low amps clamp ( 20A scale ) on the no #1 injector.This will kill a few birds with one stone, we will see cranking speed, injector firing event & possibly timing, you could also probe the FRP ( fuel rail pressure sensor ). Put a bit more time on screen so we can see more events, please ?
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Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI, none start

Postby autodiagnose » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:13 pm

Hi Robski

I have done some more screenshots. It was a bit difficult to get proper screenshot because the engine started every time, and run rough, then stopped again after few seconds. Tomorrow I will find the crankshaft sensor and scope the signal. The signal is a AC signal from a inductive sensor. Camshaft is hall sensor and then a square wave signal. Mybe I misunderstood something about what signal to measure. My scope is a 2 ch. Pico Scope.

See. att. screenshot

Best regards
Sven Arild Mortensen
Attachments
Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI,rel.compr.test.psdata
(480.74 KiB) Downloaded 259 times
Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI, rel.compression (blue), firing pulse injector no.1 (red).psdata
(1.43 MiB) Downloaded 250 times
Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI, rail pressure sensor at start.psdata
(18.76 KiB) Downloaded 244 times
Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI injector current syl.1.psdata
(11.44 KiB) Downloaded 237 times
Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI first look, injector trig.voltage,engine run rough.psdata
(919.27 KiB) Downloaded 224 times
Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI camshaft signal.psdata
(241.94 KiB) Downloaded 236 times
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Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI, hard to start,rough idle for 3-4

Postby Robski » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:34 pm

Sven

My apologies, i should have told you to also immobilise the car so it wouldn't start when doing the relative compression test, if you set a trigger on the current Channel A there's no need to dash to the vehicle trying to catch a fresh screen.

When you changed the injector did you enter the correction factor ( code ) ?

I will take a look at your captures you have posted tomorrow some time, i did notice you had the amps clamp the wrong way round on the injector, this can be sorted by inverting the channel whilst analysing.

So if you want to grab another relative compression capture with injector current with the car immobilised feel free, also stick more time on screen to see more events, a 10 second sweep would be fine.
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Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI, hard to start,rough idle for 3-4

Postby Robski » Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:24 am

Looking at the relative compression capture i would't suspect any compression issues on just one cylinder, one question i would ask though is the battery fully charged as i would expect at least another 40 RPM on the cranking speed ?

Does this start easier on a sniff of easy start ?

If every thing checks out before the injectors ie HP pump proof test, injectors are firing ( pulling amps ), the starter is cranking fast enough, timing, injectors are coded then i would start suspecting the injector spray patterns.

To back up your relative compression test up you could run a compression test through Pico Diagnostics .
Last edited by Robski on Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI, hard to start,rough idle for 3-4

Postby Avdr » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:17 pm

Haven't looked at the pico files, but I own a kangoo van myself with the same setup. If you need any measurements taking from a known good vehicle don't hesitate to ask...

Also regarding the timing, I have changed the belt on my van and found it would be very easy to get the timing wrong if the correct tools are not used. The crankshaft sprocket is not 'keyed' to the crankshaft - relying only on the clamping force of the front pulley to keep it in place.

EDIT: Just to add a little more info re. injector coding, on my van I found all four injectors had been replaced but the codes had not been updated.
I programmed the new codes, but it has made absolutely no difference in performance, starting, smoking etc etc.

I am not suggesting it isn't neccesary to code replacement injectors - only that for the moment I would discount it from the list of potential problems.

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Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI, hard to start,rough idle for 3-4

Postby autodiagnose » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:16 am

Hi
Thanks Andy for supporting me with measurements and info from your own car. If I need any more information, I will be asking you

Yes I know about the special tools for changing timeing belt. Many Renault cars have this solution, no key on the crankshaft. :(

It is no need for updating the injector coding when changed. Just drive some miles and the engine ECU will do the calibation itself. Told by a diesel specialist locted in Norway. So my answer is, I have not done anything about coding the new injector.

Today I will go back to "start", using my Pico scope and trace some signals once more.

I`ll be back with more info later....

Best regard
Sven Arild
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Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI, hard to start,rough idle for 3-4

Postby autodiagnose » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:50 am

Hi Pico friends

Have done some measurements, see. att. scope traces
It seems that compression is ok, and the injector get the proper signal. What about timing? On trace 2 you can see camshaft vs. crankshaft. Can someone confirm this trace?

Andy; do you have a trace showing crankshaft vs. camshaft on cranking/idling?

Every tips and hints will be helpful, thanks!!

Sven Arild
Attachments
7Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI injector current syl.1.psdata
(11.44 KiB) Downloaded 208 times
6Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI,kranking,injection pulse (red).psdata
(212.54 KiB) Downloaded 205 times
5Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI, rail pressure sensor at cranking.psdata
(18.76 KiB) Downloaded 201 times
4Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI first look, injector trig.voltage,engine run rough.psdata
(919.27 KiB) Downloaded 219 times
3Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI crankshaft sensor,no injector.psdata
(133.97 KiB) Downloaded 211 times
2Renault Kangoo 1.5 DCI, crankshaft (blue),camshaft (red), cranking.psdata
(207.42 KiB) Downloaded 239 times
1Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI rel.compression,cranking.psdata
(454.42 KiB) Downloaded 222 times
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Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI, hard to start,rough idle for 3-4

Postby Avdr » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:24 am

Hi Sven.

I will obtain a trace for you from my van - I don't have any stored on the computer, so it might not be until monday night that I come back to you with the pico file.

What should I get?

I will capture anything that seems relevant for you.

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Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5DCI, hard to start,rough idle for 3-4

Postby Darren Cotton » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:03 am

Here is a Known good,


LX55 UOR Kangoo Crank Cam Injector.gif




one thing to remember with this engine set up, you are measuring the Cam signal from the fuel pump pulley.... so its not the camshaft... i would remove the timing belt and Camshaft pulley and check the locator for the pulley is not broken.....

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