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Dodge Ram 2500, Rear Tire Siping Feathering
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AndersonGarage
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- Joined: Sun May 29, 2022 2:36 pm
Dodge Ram 2500, Rear Tire Siping Feathering
Got a question perhaps somebody has seen this. I never have, but my suspicions I will not reveal until I get some unbiased feedback. This of course has nothing to do with electronics or Picoscope. Although perhaps NVH could possibly reveal something...
2017 RAM 54,000 Miles with the 6.7 diesel a 6 speed manual and Limited Slip Differential. New winter tires have about 1,500 miles on them. Summer tires have about 500 miles on those and now they are starting to have same issue observed on the winter tires.
Most of the time the truck runs either unloaded or lightly loaded.
Swapped the winter tires for the new summer tires and there is a feathering on the siping of the winter tires. See photos below (2nd one shows it best). This only occurs on the rear tires. Both rear tires are equal with respect to the amount of feathering and the direction is front to back (meaning the rear of the tread where the siping starts raises like a sawtooth. Had the Tire shop check the Truck's alignment when the new summer tires were installed and all was good.
I don't drive the truck hard and never spin the tires if I can avoid it.
Be curious to hear some thoughts.
2017 RAM 54,000 Miles with the 6.7 diesel a 6 speed manual and Limited Slip Differential. New winter tires have about 1,500 miles on them. Summer tires have about 500 miles on those and now they are starting to have same issue observed on the winter tires.
Most of the time the truck runs either unloaded or lightly loaded.
Swapped the winter tires for the new summer tires and there is a feathering on the siping of the winter tires. See photos below (2nd one shows it best). This only occurs on the rear tires. Both rear tires are equal with respect to the amount of feathering and the direction is front to back (meaning the rear of the tread where the siping starts raises like a sawtooth. Had the Tire shop check the Truck's alignment when the new summer tires were installed and all was good.
I don't drive the truck hard and never spin the tires if I can avoid it.
Be curious to hear some thoughts.
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Steve Smith
- Pico Staff Member
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Re: Dodge Ram 2500, Rear Tire Siping Feathering
Hello and thank you for the post, sorry for the late reply
I have a number of questions to ask so as to build a bigger picture of the vehicle history
Have you owned and run the vehicle for the 54,000 miles covered? Or, have you noticed this only since the 1500 miles covered on the winter tyres and the 500 miles driven on the summer tyres?
I ask this question because if the previous 52,000 miles covered exhibited no issues, then our symptom is related to events or work carried out in the last 2000 miles.
Could I ask if the wheels and tyres are genuine and approved for the vehicle? Differing rolling circumferences will introduce varying wheel frequencies/speeds even when driven in a straight line which will play havoc with limited slip differentials
How does the vehicle corner, i.e., especially when maneuvering, have you experienced “tight cornering phenomena”? (Skipping and hopping of the wheel and tyre)
Forgive me here for making an assumption, given only the rear wheels and tyres exhibit these symptoms, is the vehicle typically driven as a RWD configuration only?
Regarding the wheel alignment carried out, would you have the details of the measured values against the specification?
Would there be any adjustment on the rear axle or is this a fixed live axle?
Would you know if the wheel alignment requires the vehicle to be laden or “pulled down” before measurements and adjustments are under taken?
How does the vehicle drive, i.e., does it exhibit any noise or vibration?
Does the vehicle “Track/Tram” when the steering wheel is released on a straight level road?
By “Track/Tram” the vehicle would exhibit a tendency to remain on a fixed line wherever the steering wheel is turned.
For example, move the steering wheel 15° to the left from the straight-ahead position and the vehicle follows this line without self-centering?
Is the steering wheel alignment correct when the vehicle is driven on a straight level road (no side wind) or do you find yourself “compensating” to keep the vehicle on a straight trajectory
I know you mentioned the vehicle is typically unladen, however when laden, does the vehicle handling improve (an odd question I know but often, these vehicles can appear “jittery and bouncy” when unladen)
Sorry for all the questions, this will however help build a bigger picture
I hope this helps, take care…. Steve
I have a number of questions to ask so as to build a bigger picture of the vehicle history
Have you owned and run the vehicle for the 54,000 miles covered? Or, have you noticed this only since the 1500 miles covered on the winter tyres and the 500 miles driven on the summer tyres?
I ask this question because if the previous 52,000 miles covered exhibited no issues, then our symptom is related to events or work carried out in the last 2000 miles.
Could I ask if the wheels and tyres are genuine and approved for the vehicle? Differing rolling circumferences will introduce varying wheel frequencies/speeds even when driven in a straight line which will play havoc with limited slip differentials
How does the vehicle corner, i.e., especially when maneuvering, have you experienced “tight cornering phenomena”? (Skipping and hopping of the wheel and tyre)
Forgive me here for making an assumption, given only the rear wheels and tyres exhibit these symptoms, is the vehicle typically driven as a RWD configuration only?
Regarding the wheel alignment carried out, would you have the details of the measured values against the specification?
Would there be any adjustment on the rear axle or is this a fixed live axle?
Would you know if the wheel alignment requires the vehicle to be laden or “pulled down” before measurements and adjustments are under taken?
How does the vehicle drive, i.e., does it exhibit any noise or vibration?
Does the vehicle “Track/Tram” when the steering wheel is released on a straight level road?
By “Track/Tram” the vehicle would exhibit a tendency to remain on a fixed line wherever the steering wheel is turned.
For example, move the steering wheel 15° to the left from the straight-ahead position and the vehicle follows this line without self-centering?
Is the steering wheel alignment correct when the vehicle is driven on a straight level road (no side wind) or do you find yourself “compensating” to keep the vehicle on a straight trajectory
I know you mentioned the vehicle is typically unladen, however when laden, does the vehicle handling improve (an odd question I know but often, these vehicles can appear “jittery and bouncy” when unladen)
Sorry for all the questions, this will however help build a bigger picture
I hope this helps, take care…. Steve
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AndersonGarage
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- Joined: Sun May 29, 2022 2:36 pm
Re: Dodge Ram 2500, Rear Tire Siping Feathering
Thank you Steve for answering!Steve Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:55 pmHello and thank you for the post, sorry for the late reply
Sure!Steve Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:55 pmI have a number of questions to ask so as to build a bigger picture of the vehicle history
I think its been a lifelong thing. This may be a little long winded, but the backstory is probably helpful. I purchased the truck at 34,000 miles as a used vehicle. The truck came with a previous set of tires, an all terrain type, moderate lugs, a bit noisy; and based on CARFAX were the second set on the vehicle. I forget when they were installed. Probably around 27,000 Mi. At 34,000 when I bought it, these tires had some wear on them but not too terrible. The Front tires had more tread remaining than the rear and I had thought the selling dealership may have just rotated them when I bought it. After driving for about a month, I was not thrilled with the tires. They were fairly hard tires that performed not so good in the rain and snow. I wanted to get rid of them, but I felt obligated to wear them out a bit more in good conscience to my wallet. Anyway, after driving on them for about 7,000 miles and knowing the rears were worn more than the fronts, I thought it would be a good time to rotate them, as its been my experience that Rear Tires on Pickup Trucks tend to wear slower than the fronts, especially when there is a big diesel on top of them. Well when I went to rotate them, I could see that the rear tires were way worse than the fronts. They were wearing out at roughly 2x the speed of the fronts and were wearing like they were overinflated. The tires wore heavy at the center and not so heavy at the edges. I brought the truck to the tire shop and asked them what they thought and they believed the tires should have worn evenly at that pressure but were a no-name cheap tertiary brand Load Range E and the not so great quality was the reason the 80 psi was not keeping them flat across the tread. I thought that made sense and asked if I could pull the pressure down to get better treadwear, but the truck only lets me bring it down a few psi before it makes all sorts of bells and whistles. I probably could have had them change the setting but I just ran them at 75. The truck recommends load range E filled to 80 psi at the rear and 60 psi at the front. Come last November I bought a 2nd set of rims for the truck and put on 4 new Bridgestone Blizzaks Load Range E. That is what you see in the photos. These rode like sneakers. Really quiet, no noise, no vibration, nothing, the truck was smooth like a car. Plus the winter driving was leagues better than the no-name tires.Steve Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:55 pmHave you owned and run the vehicle for the 54,000 miles covered? Or, have you noticed this only since the 1500 miles covered on the winter tyres and the 500 miles driven on the summer tyres?
I ask this question because if the previous 52,000 miles covered exhibited no issues, then our symptom is related to events or work carried out in the last 2000 miles.
Both new sets of tires are the exact same size as the recommended tire size is on the door and they are filled to the specs indicated there. 60 psi for the front 80 psi for the rear. The Blizzaks are awesome in the wet and snow, the Michelins are nice too; neither set has been abused other than regular travel on asphalt roadways with occasional gravel roads.Steve Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:55 pmCould I ask if the wheels and tyres are genuine and approved for the vehicle? Differing rolling circumferences will introduce varying wheel frequencies/speeds even when driven in a straight line which will play havoc with limited slip differentials
No skipping and hopping. Both sets of tires drive really nice, truck tracks straight, no noise, no pull, no vibration. Only time I get a grab in the back is when I am on or come off of a gravel road or driveway onto asphalt in a turn and I can hear the outside rear tire doing a little bit of dragging because the traction is breaking due to the dirt/gravel allowing it to slip. (This is what I thought it might be the cause. The long crew cab wheelbase acting like a giant lever and skidding the outside tire ever so imperceptibly around on asphalt in every turn, but I am not certain this would do it, and have never seen this before in other Limited Slips I have owned. Although, this one definitely keeps its slip integrity better than any other truck I owned with a Limited Slip. I havent looked in there yet but, I am pretty sure this has not been changed to a locker because from what I know, Lockers tend to bang a bit when the wheel speeds return to sync, and this does not.Steve Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:55 pmHow does the vehicle corner, i.e., especially when maneuvering, have you experienced “tight cornering phenomena”? (Skipping and hopping of the wheel and tyre)
Forgive me here for making an assumption, given only the rear wheels and tyres exhibit these symptoms, is the vehicle typically driven as a RWD configuration only?
No, I was willing to have it aligned, they checked it for me and they said it was in spec. I didn't get measured values.Steve Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:55 pmRegarding the wheel alignment carried out, would you have the details of the measured values against the specification?
Fixed Live Axle and no adjustments that I know of. Its coil spring type and all the control arm bushings and connection points appear to be tight.Steve Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:55 pmWould there be any adjustment on the rear axle or is this a fixed live axle?
According to the Service manual:Steve Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:55 pmWould you know if the wheel alignment requires the vehicle to be laden or “pulled down” before measurements and adjustments are under taken?
Wheel Alignment to be done in normally loaded condition.
No, the thing drives great especially with the new tires. In fact I was amazed at how quiet and smooth when I drove it for the first time with the new tires.Steve Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:55 pmHow does the vehicle drive, i.e., does it exhibit any noise or vibration?
No Track/Tram, it comes back to center on its own caster feels good, only time i have to correct is when there is a good road crown and I am on one or the other side of it, which is normal to me. The steering wheel is aligned correctly.Steve Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:55 pmDoes the vehicle “Track/Tram” when the steering wheel is released on a straight level road?
By “Track/Tram” the vehicle would exhibit a tendency to remain on a fixed line wherever the steering wheel is turned.
For example, move the steering wheel 15° to the left from the straight-ahead position and the vehicle follows this line without self-centering?
Is the steering wheel alignment correct when the vehicle is driven on a straight level road (no side wind) or do you find yourself “compensating” to keep the vehicle on a straight trajectory
The truck drives as good at 24,000 GVW with truck at 10,000 and 14,000 in the trailer, as is at 8,200 with just me in there.Steve Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:55 pmI know you mentioned the vehicle is typically unladen, however when laden, does the vehicle handling improve (an odd question I know but often, these vehicles can appear “jittery and bouncy” when unladen)
Thanks Again Steve. You guys are great. Love the scope videos!Steve Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:55 pmSorry for all the questions, this will however help build a bigger picture
I hope this helps, take care…. Steve
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Steve Smith
- Pico Staff Member
- Posts: 1591
- Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:22 am
Re: Dodge Ram 2500, Rear Tire Siping Feathering
Hello again and thank you for the feedback, sorry for the late reply
This would appear to be an inherent issue as you mentioned “a lifelong thing” and my first thought now turns to the VM and “known issues” or technical service bulletins covering this concern/symptom. Would you know if any are listed?
Thanks for the info about the tyre brands to, from what I can determine, three tyre brands exhibit the same symptoms? (Budget, Bridgestone and Michelin)
If so, we can move away from tyre construction being the cause. When you mentioned the tyre pressures, these do seem high (from my perspective) and would certainly be responsible for the initial central wear you describe on the rear tyres. The high inflation level may have been used to combat the feathered wear pattern too!
It does sound like your differential set up is handling the transition from gravel to asphalt with the minimum of “fuss” and the absence of “tight cornering phenomena” appears to confirm the same.
I have experienced incorrect differential oils generating noise and “grab” with true off road 4x4 vehicles and I would certainly check and ensure yours contain the correct spec oil. (Purely for best practice)
I think at this stage it is time to take a step back and look at what causes this featured wear and this is predominately alignment as the tyre is presented to the road at the incorrect angle.
Obtaining objective alignment data will provide a bench mark and the ability to move forward with the diagnosis even when there are no adjustments to the rear suspension. (We can still have alignment errors)
One to consider is alignment that changes due to load as this could be missed during a 4-wheel alignment check.
This would include bearing float, run out, bushings and joints that flex under loads such cornering, acceleration, deceleration as well as payload and trailers.
Talking of trailers, how often do you tow and how is the trailer alignment in terms of “straight ahead”?
Sounds like an odd question but the trailer could present loading and alignment issues that are tolerated by the suspension and tyres with minimal impact on drivability
I am not sure I am being of any help but happy to provide food for thought
Take care…….Steve
This would appear to be an inherent issue as you mentioned “a lifelong thing” and my first thought now turns to the VM and “known issues” or technical service bulletins covering this concern/symptom. Would you know if any are listed?
Thanks for the info about the tyre brands to, from what I can determine, three tyre brands exhibit the same symptoms? (Budget, Bridgestone and Michelin)
If so, we can move away from tyre construction being the cause. When you mentioned the tyre pressures, these do seem high (from my perspective) and would certainly be responsible for the initial central wear you describe on the rear tyres. The high inflation level may have been used to combat the feathered wear pattern too!
It does sound like your differential set up is handling the transition from gravel to asphalt with the minimum of “fuss” and the absence of “tight cornering phenomena” appears to confirm the same.
I have experienced incorrect differential oils generating noise and “grab” with true off road 4x4 vehicles and I would certainly check and ensure yours contain the correct spec oil. (Purely for best practice)
I think at this stage it is time to take a step back and look at what causes this featured wear and this is predominately alignment as the tyre is presented to the road at the incorrect angle.
Obtaining objective alignment data will provide a bench mark and the ability to move forward with the diagnosis even when there are no adjustments to the rear suspension. (We can still have alignment errors)
One to consider is alignment that changes due to load as this could be missed during a 4-wheel alignment check.
This would include bearing float, run out, bushings and joints that flex under loads such cornering, acceleration, deceleration as well as payload and trailers.
Talking of trailers, how often do you tow and how is the trailer alignment in terms of “straight ahead”?
Sounds like an odd question but the trailer could present loading and alignment issues that are tolerated by the suspension and tyres with minimal impact on drivability
I am not sure I am being of any help but happy to provide food for thought
Take care…….Steve
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AndersonGarage
- Newbie
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Sun May 29, 2022 2:36 pm
Re: Dodge Ram 2500, Rear Tire Siping Feathering
Thanks Steve for the response.
1. I agree the only way to know about the alignment is to get it on the rack. I will do that in the near future and post back here when I have something definitive.
2. Prior to that I will be doing a differential service, so I will be having a look in each of those and replacing with proper spec fluid.
3. Towing is infrequent. Probably 500 miles over the last 15,000 miles. I am not always towing my max 12,000 lb trailer. About a third of that 500 miles was roughly at 5,000 lb trailer weight.
1. I agree the only way to know about the alignment is to get it on the rack. I will do that in the near future and post back here when I have something definitive.
2. Prior to that I will be doing a differential service, so I will be having a look in each of those and replacing with proper spec fluid.
3. Towing is infrequent. Probably 500 miles over the last 15,000 miles. I am not always towing my max 12,000 lb trailer. About a third of that 500 miles was roughly at 5,000 lb trailer weight.