MINI R56 2009

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Re: MINI R56 2009

Postby Liteace » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:40 pm

STC wrote:
I have WDS, ICOM, and an Account with BMW Tech Info. Just shout if you need any thing.


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Re: MINI R56 2009

Postby Technician » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:09 am

I take your points on board, yes I have used AD's wiring diagram and their checking procedure. I have just learned today after litace post to check the fuses and power supplies that unless the engine is actually running there is no battery voltage to the fuses, which supply the power supplies for the ECM, actually ignition on the voltage at the fuses were 1.31V.

The AD checking procedure says B17 signal from ECM to the lambda's and yes the injectors but I was not looking at those, should be battery voltage with the ignition on, however according to the wiring diagram there is an ignition control relay grounded by the ECM, but at what point, is that at ignition on or engine cranking, I don't know I was not looking for that either. If then the AD checking procedure is incorrect then the B17, B29 at ignition on will not be battery voltage if the K46 control relay has not activated, via the ECM. It appears at the moment then that B17 and B29 will only output battery voltage with the engine running, and if that is the case when I now double check it, and it more than likely will be, the AD checking procedure is incorrect.

The ECM B18 terminal is a switched earth, the battery feed originates from B17 and B29, through the heaters of the oxygen sensors back to the ECM terminal B18. AD advise that a scope setting of 5V/0.5 sec is recommended to check the PWM signal, but you disagree STC!!

The battery voltage (running engine) will be around 14.7V, AD advise 5V per division on the scope to display the PWM signal, which read nothing until I dropped the voltage to 0.2V. All this must have something to do with ignition on and engine running then, hence I''ll double check all measurements tomorrow.

Yes the lambda fault code returns after being cleared, freeze frame data I'll have to check it to see what is there.
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Re: MINI R56 2009

Postby STC » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:26 am

hmmm

I have just learned today after litace post to check the fuses and power supplies that unless the engine is actually running there is no battery voltage to the fuses,


It runs and drives - it wont be doing that with 1v at the ECU power supply fuses.

which supply the power supplies for the ECM, actually ignition on the voltage at the fuses were 1.31V.

Now you want to teach me the strategy of that controller when you have doubts yourself - that will not end well ?

The AD checking procedure says B17 signal from ECM to the lambda's and yes the injectors but I was not looking at those, should be battery voltage with the ignition on, however according to the wiring diagram there is an ignition control relay grounded by the ECM, but at what point, is that at ignition on or engine cranking, I don't know I was not looking for that either. If then the AD checking procedure is incorrect then the B17, B29 at ignition on will not be battery voltage if the K46 control relay has not activated, via the ECM. It appears at the moment then that B17 and B29 will only output battery voltage with the engine running, and if that is the case when I now double check it, and it more than likely will be, the AD checking procedure is incorrect.


Bin that procedure, or learn to interpret it correctly.

The ECM B18 terminal is a switched earth, the battery feed originates from B17 and B29, through the heaters of the oxygen sensors back to the ECM terminal B18.


Loosely speaking that is the case but you are measuring the right thing in the wrong way at the wrong time with the tool set up wrong and have not grasped what you need to be looking for. I'm not about to give it away with little chance of a return in the future. We have been down that road before.

AD advise that a scope setting of 5V/0.5 sec is recommended to check the PWM signal, but you disagree STC!!

Yes I do - and I disagree with lots of Guided tests from the VM's. Some are nowhere near conclusive enough and do lead to a misdiagnosis.

The battery voltage (running engine) will be around 14.7V, AD advise 5V per division on the scope to display the PWM signal, which read nothing until I dropped the voltage to 0.2V. All this must have something to do with ignition on and engine running then, hence I''ll double check all measurements tomorrow.


You seem hell bent on looking for a PWM that is not there. There are many variables as to why not. ECU failure is one which you have picked up on, there are others that the statistics will favour.
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Re: MINI R56 2009

Postby Technician » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:36 am

STC,

Given that you disagree with everything said, and you disagree with AD's test procedures as well, there is no pleasing you, so I have a solution.

You tell me how the circuits based on the two fault codes should be tested, the only code returned is the lambda code after road test.
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Re: MINI R56 2009

Postby Dcunning35 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:37 am

Morning tech ,
Could you look at the ,map,iat,tp upstream 02 serially from cold start through warm up im still trying to understand the rough running in conjunction with the post cat o2 dtc .
Please humour me as I am not with the vehicle but would if possible like to assist.
Does this only occur from initial start, or worsen with engine warm up
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Re: MINI R56 2009

Postby Dcunning35 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:39 am

Open or closed loop? , have you got the freeze frame behind the dtc ? That would really help to know the ecm read engine conditions at time of logging dtc.
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Re: MINI R56 2009

Postby STC » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:21 pm

Technician wrote:STC,

Given that you disagree with everything said, and you disagree with AD's test procedures as well, there is no pleasing you, so I have a solution.

You tell me how the circuits based on the two fault codes should be tested, the only code returned is the lambda code after road test.


Emulate the heater circuit
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Re: MINI R56 2009

Postby Technician » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:41 pm

Dcunning35 wrote:Morning tech ,
Could you look at the ,map,iat,tp upstream 02 serially from cold start through warm up im still trying to understand the rough running in conjunction with the post cat o2 dtc .
Please humour me as I am not with the vehicle but would if possible like to assist.
Does this only occur from initial start, or worsen with engine warm up

Dcunning35 wrote:Open or closed loop? , have you got the freeze frame behind the dtc ? That would really help to know the ecm read engine conditions at time of logging dtc.


Not at the moment I cleared the fault codes then realised I should not have done sorry.


Dcunning35 wrote:Morning tech ,
Could you look at the ,map,iat,tp upstream 02 serially from cold start through warm up im still trying to understand the rough running in conjunction with the post cat o2 dtc .
Please humour me as I am not with the vehicle but would if possible like to assist.
Does this only occur from initial start, or worsen with engine warm up


The rough running was caused by the lady driver running the engine with no oil in, well actually roughly 1 litre in. The engine must have been nipping up on the pistons and rings etc as the engine was being run too hot. I changed the oil and filter the engine ran then at normal temperature and a good road test proved the engine was running well, however the engine is burning oil quite badly, and given its only done 40 ish thousand miles it's not a lot. A lambda sensor fail after the CAT I'm sure would not cause serious amounts of exhaust smoke (blue).

The only fault code that returned after the road test was for the lambda sensor bank 1 sensor 2. The only voltage reading I was not happy with was from B18, a switched earth. Has AD got this wrong, they say that the scope should be set at 5V 0.5 sec and provide an example waveform, the actual waveform measured on the scope (VERUS) is nothing like the example, complete hash and noise, and only visible using low voltage settings like 0.2V per division. I lead myself to believe that it could be an ECM fault, but may also be related to other inputs. The lambda sensor 2 could have also been changed to try and solve this problem recently, it appears now her mother advises the car has been recently bought and they seller (trade) knew of this problem she says when the car was sold. She has taken the car today I am to understand that she is going back to the seller, she has just paid £4 K for the car so I'll have to wait and see what happens for now. I'll update in due course.
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Re: MINI R56 2009

Postby STC » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:31 pm

Has AD got this wrong, they say that the scope should be set at 5V 0.5 sec and provide an example waveform,


Yes and No, Many variables, If you have a good car then NO they have not got it wrong. If you have a shorted / open circuit then the controller will need to know and will test for that.

A Pico you can set at anything and be able to see that test take place and why it passed or failed. I will let you test and comment on the wonders of the Verus.

She has taken the car today I am to understand that .... .... ......... .............. .................


This is a recurring theme with you. In all the years I have read your posts I have yet to see one positive conclusion, one car fixed !

You clearly have a desire to learn and be a good diagnostic technician, and you think you can learn on the job and online. My opinion - No Chance. If you want some suggestions - Just ask
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Re: MINI R56 2009

Postby RYM6746 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:55 pm

I assume at this point you are just trying to get rid of the heater circuit code on the O2. I think a quick and dirty test would be to put a standard incandescent test light in place of the heater delete the code and run the engine you should see the light illuminate (probably pulsed on and off) and the code shouldn't return. Let us know what the results of this test are
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