alfa romeo cam+crank timing

If you are not a PicoScope user and want advice with a diagnostic problem then post here. Forum members may be able to help.
the57
Newbie
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:21 pm

alfa romeo cam+crank timing

Post by the57 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:28 pm

Alfa Romeo 1998 2.0 T-spark, engine code 323.01
Has any-one got a Crankshaft/Camshaft Correlation waveform please, car won't start, only code it had was a crankshaft sensor code, its got injection and spark pulse and fuel pressure. The signal from the crank and cam are good and the timing pins fit.
Thanks

User avatar
STC
Banned
Posts: 790
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:10 am

Re: alfa romeo cam+crank timing

Post by STC » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:20 pm

I don't have a waveform for you to compare, however if you do not find one then a couple of captures will tell you if things are happening when they should.
- Cam / Crank / Injector 1 current / Coil 1 Primary Current
- Starter Current / Injector 1 Current / Coil 1 Primary Current / Crank

the57
Newbie
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:21 pm

Re: alfa romeo cam+crank timing

Post by the57 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:36 pm

I've ordered a current clamp, should have it in a week or so.

User avatar
STC
Banned
Posts: 790
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:10 am

Re: alfa romeo cam+crank timing

Post by STC » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:29 pm

I've ordered a current clamp,
Problem is that you will need 3. 2x Low Amps & a High Amps. Possibly not what you wanted to hear just after xmas.

User avatar
PicoKev
TwoWaves
TwoWaves
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:16 am

Re: alfa romeo cam+crank timing

Post by PicoKev » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:01 pm

Alternatively order a WPS 500 kit to go with the clamp and that should be all he will need. :wink: :D 8)
Bring on the shiny things! :lol: :lol:

User avatar
PicoKev
TwoWaves
TwoWaves
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:16 am

Re: alfa romeo cam+crank timing

Post by PicoKev » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:15 pm

the57 wrote: and the timing pins fit.
Are you sure?
As from memory that engine is not timed with pins it is set up with a DTi, locking caps on the cam lobes, rotating timing wheels and marks. :?

the57
Newbie
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:21 pm

Re: alfa romeo cam+crank timing

Post by the57 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:18 pm

Yes its timed with a locking cap on the lobes pointing up and dti top dead centre :) ,i would love new shiny things picokev, but this is only a one off like a hobby, i got a scope, 1 low amp, and i ordered a high amp

User avatar
FioranoCars
TwoWaves
TwoWaves
Posts: 377
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:26 am
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: alfa romeo cam+crank timing

Post by FioranoCars » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:32 am

the57 wrote:Alfa Romeo 1998 2.0 T-spark, engine code 323.01
Has any-one got a Crankshaft/Camshaft Correlation waveform please
The waveform library has a few for the 2.0 twin spark 323.01 as I did a comparison search for the wife's 2002 147 which seemed (not got round to checking it though) to be down on power and up on fuel use, so thought timing might be out.
If you struggle to find them pm me and I'll dig out what I have on my laptop.

the57 wrote:car won't start, only code it had was a crankshaft sensor code
Did you check signal at the crank sensor or the ecu? Recheck both crank and cam signals at the ECU, if there was a plausibility error the code from memory is helpful in that direction... Maybe !
No cam signal might give a crank error code, can't remember sorry, did play with things disconnected to see what happened ...

I assume it cranks? And the error clears and does not return until its first re-crank attempt?

Not sure how you can check timing on that engine, I was looking to use a piezo pressure sender (first look) to see if I could ascertain valve events verse spark and crank amps, maybe wps500 in cylinder but not yet had time to do it, and wife is not noticing the power loss, so it a on hold project now, but will do it to see how far non invasive tests can or might get you. Without cam covers and belt covers off I don't think there is a visual or other method to check the timing, cam cap swap for holder is only way, and see how far the dti guage has moved from tdc? Let me know if you have other method, as I can try it here!

If ordering an amp clamp get the 2000 amp version it's worth it.

Can you post your captures for crank with cam with ignition or injector that you have?

Thanks
Richard

User avatar
Fat Freddy
TwoWaves
TwoWaves
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 4:52 am

Re: alfa romeo cam+crank timing

Post by Fat Freddy » Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:49 pm

car won't start, only code it had was a crankshaft sensor code,
Don't ignore starter noise.

HTH
FF

User avatar
FioranoCars
TwoWaves
TwoWaves
Posts: 377
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:26 am
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: alfa romeo cam+crank timing

Post by FioranoCars » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:21 pm

Hi again, having just lost my post (sadly back button did not recover my missives - Chrome+Captcha today is not happy and I'm on a BT broadband connection!!) anyway...

here are 2 cars, same timing - a 1.6 alfa 2001 147 and a 156 2.0 both are identical, spot why?!
The 156 is supposedly 3.6 deg out, but based on the other captures I'm doubting that, a small error in analysis...
147 1.6 AR321.04 shares same timing.png
similar timed alfa
Alfa 156 Timing AR323.01 Error from Waveform library.png
156 error or not ?? from library
They are both ME7.3.1 Bosch (PM me if you want the wiring diagram for Pinouts at ECU - need your email, as can't attach stuff in a PM for some reason?)

Is the VVT stuck open?
Is there any firing during crank attempts?

It would need to be 15-20deg out or more to stop it starting, the VVT is at least 15deg rotation, so unless the timing is massively out, I doubt a single tooth belt jump would stop it firing at all.

What's the history?

Thoughts on the two waveforms, and why I think they are the same most welcome :D

Best Richard

Post Reply