Alfa 2.0 TwinSpark (Engine R323.10) Crank/Cam Timing

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Alfa 2.0 TwinSpark (Engine R323.10) Crank/Cam Timing

Postby FioranoCars » Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:07 pm

Hi All
Had a search of the waveform library to prep for a car tomorrow, and then searched the web, which revealed a Pico Case Study, see link, I'm after a Crank verse Cam waveform so I can check timing, and sadly my technical data for this model, not being an Alfa specialist, is not great.
https://dev-www.picoauto.com/library/case-studies/1998-Alfa-Romeo-Spider-2-0-misleading-MIL-P0300
But sadly the Spider changed engines in 1998, so not sure I can trust this to be the same (change-over year), and the PSdata files are sadly not linked in the article or in the library ... Steve/Mike are you able to help?

This also shows why it pays to fill in all that extra data, like Engine code etc :cry:

There are 2 cars in the waveform library, a 1.6L 2001 147 (engine Code AR321.04) which is (near) "identical" timing to the Spider above (same cam timing phonic element too), and a 156, which is close to my engine code (AR323.01, I'm after a AR323.10), but while listed as "Good" has a timing error, if the other 2 cars are the same setup (big leap), of 3.6° ... just over half a tooth. Not sure what to trust, so if someone can comment, please do.

Ref the timing error on the 156 capture ... see the Insert box to the picture below (blue arrows show the zoom width), the red arrow is the actual timing, green arrow where I think it should be ...

Alfa 156 Timing AR323.01 Error from Waveform library.png
timing issue

The psdata file from the library, with correctly positioned rotational ruler is attached. Should the file be labelled for future as being "bad" timing (if Indeed my pile of assumptions are correct?!) :| ... how do we go about feeding back on the library files?

If anyone can confirm the correct timing for this engine, or supply a "known" good crank verse Cam (spark, or injector, or compression data extra, all the better!).

This engine in either 1.8/2.0 form is VVT, so would love it if someone has got waveforms with this in active mode ...

I'll post my captures, but would like to know what to label them :D

Thanks
Richard Lukins
Fiorano Cars
Ferrari Maserati Lamborghini and Porsche Independent Specialists
Attachments
Alfa Romeo_156_2000_Petrol_3.6 deg error.psdata
timing error
(1.36 MiB) Downloaded 13 times
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Re: Alfa 2.0 TwinSpark (Engine R323.10) Crank/Cam Timing

Postby STC » Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:26 pm

Hi Richard

In Cylinder Running Compression waveforms with WPS, With VVT Paralysed and then connected, & actuated via bi directional scan tool.

Is this Mrs Lukens runabout ?

I have some VM info on these, text or call me if you need it.
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Re: Alfa 2.0 TwinSpark (Engine R323.10) Crank/Cam Timing

Postby FioranoCars » Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:46 am

Hi
STC wrote:In Cylinder Running Compression waveforms with WPS, With VVT Paralysed and then connected, & actuated via bi directional scan tool.

Are these things you have? If so yes please, PM me if too big to share share or Dropbox them...

For the VVT, I have a dirty trick, as most scan tools can EITHER actuate OR monitor, but not both, I tend to take a look at the operation, and once happy timing is safe to proceed (we've had a few that were close to not being, so I check each time! not done any harm ... yet), then monitor on the tool and actuate by hand, that way we have collaborating data from the car's point of view in terms of what the ECU is seeing ... notice the warnings, and risks ... no responsibility taken for anyone bending some valves, proceed with caution and if in any doubt ... DON'T :!: :oops:
One rule I should heed more often myself :cry: :cry:

Of course if your scan tool can do both, let me know, ours can't, nor can Maserati, which is where we see loads of VVT issues, hence looking at this car, we do so many variators and timing issues.

No sure if we'll do the WPS stuff unless we see a problem, probably settle for spark and/or spark and/or injector

The only data I can find is for the 156 engine:
Intake: open 0/25 BTDC, close 55/30 ABDC, intake total angle: 235 degrees
Exhaust: open 50 BBDC, close 8 ATDC, exhaust duration: 238 degrees
Overlap: 8/33 degrees

But not sure if this is the same AR323.10 version/configuration! And really want some definitive data to compare/calculate against ... so yes any VM data great.

OK, we do have bore/stroke, compression ratio and pressure, firing order, I think I saw somewhere early in the google that the variator is 25° operation but never saw a factory number, and sure I saw a different number somewhere else, so knowing what that should be would be good too.

Also noticed that using the "Edge counting" measurement system, when using the "missing teeth" position for the rulers, that "rising edge count" is 1 short, but that "falling edge count" is correct ... yes, I can see why logically that it is NOT a bug, but not sure if it's been made clear? Well I'm sure I'll forget soon enough, but thought I'd share my hand counting skills and lack of forethought, maybe save someone else the brief puzzlement it brought! It's all down to the rising of the first edge having started (no edge change to count for the first peak), so I hope this helps someone!

:!: Simple rule of thumb :!:
If using edge count for missing teeth located rulers, that Rise after the "gap" use FALLING EDGE COUNT to get you teeth correct

Thanks
Richard

PS
Saw your Q7 thing, and will take a look, so please let me know if you solve it in the meantime :-)
I do stand by my first observation, you need to see the pressures at manual gauges for Hi/Lo to be sure it's not a blockage or other defect, which is rightly tripping the system off, by either excessive high pressure or indeed excessive low pressure. Best rule that out first, otherwise you are chasing your tail for a correctly working control system :oops: :oops: :oops:
Feel free to pop it over, it'll only take 5minutes, plus coffee time of course ... rusty nut scratching time extra! :wink:
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Re: Alfa 2.0 TwinSpark (Engine R323.10) Crank/Cam Timing

Postby STC » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:31 pm

Saw your Q7 thing, and will take a look, so please let me know if you solve it in the meantime


It has gone back to the owner, he is happy now that the weather is cooler, but it can be bought back when I have something solid to work with..
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Re: Alfa 2.0 TwinSpark (Engine R323.10) Crank/Cam Timing

Postby FioranoCars » Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:09 pm

STC wrote:it can be bought back when I have something solid to work with

Wonderful, get her over, the first solid thing needed is to see REAL physical pressures ... can't do anything, even think about the problem, till you know what's happening there ... and not what the ECU is reporting, what is really happening ...

While I know someone has gas'd her, a simple overfill could cause this, and a vacuum test does not reveal a blocked/restricted/unrestricted expansion valve, all of which could cause endless turmoil for the control systems ... start with the basics, prove them, then you can start any diagnosis on solid ground with proven facts ... DTC's and parameters from ECU's are fine, but only when supported by proven solid facts ... a pair of gauges and 5minutes ...

Knowing what the Hi/Lo are up to will give you a massive head start in setting the direction of the rest of the diagnosis, or worse not knowing could send you on a goose chase from hell ...

Lend you a pair if you want, we have 2 or 3 sets, plus 2 A/C machines, so we're not short for a few days if that's easier!

Best
Richard

PS any of that VM data for the Alfa, and it's a CF3 series engine (cats in manifold), if that helps. Sadly got a mis-firing 355 arrive today, so got sidetracked on that, looks like a dual mass flywheel impacting crank signal, causing erratic starting, or not (stalling), although it might not be the root of the misfire, it's certainly not helping!
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