CANBUS on Bosch MED9.1.1 Lamborghini

Ask for and share advice on using the PicoScope kit to fix vehicles here.

Re: CANBUS on Bosch MED9.1.1 Lamborghini

Postby FioranoCars » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:08 am

STC wrote:It proves Only what you have. It does not prove that it is what it was the day it left the assembly line !!??


Yes, I know what you are saying, but to have 2 EOBD lines shorted out, and allow diagnostic access over them is just not a possible fault or someone having messed about, it would be a piece of engineering excellence to extend the BUS like that even as a desired aftermarket MOD (it would be a branch and exceed the 30cm +/- limit on length), and I'm content that the technical data I have, and the pico captures proving it, confirm in this case it is the design of this car!

While the single wire shorted onto the bus is wrong (via pin 90 of engine ecu's) onto the main powertrain bus low side (at the engine ECU this is pin 67), and that pin 90 should be a High Side pair with pin 89.

But, It's not about the EOBD access, so this is not relevant to the fault we have (at this stage anyway!).

I'm concerned with why the internal networks are reporting errors, and that we do not get any diagnostic signal drop-out (yes different tolerances and recover strategies). The powertrain noise is more likely to be related to the short onto another can bus than our pico/diagnostics...

So lets focus on the issues that might cause the problems (similar cases people have observed including VAG models as many ECU are similar) or technical data of the components (ZKE, GFA, ILM, etc) to allow us the understand more and determine what else might be wrong, especially cause such a widespread number of comms errors ...

Specifically,
- anyone seen the Steering ECU (column stalk and ignition unit) fail and bring down other systems?
- other multiple ECU comms failures from single ECU being at fault (ie across several CAN BUS?)
- Anything else relevant?

STC, Appreciate the help, your 500k observation helped heaps, but no more about the EOBD wires pleaaaasssssseeee :D :D (I'm overseas myself, otherwise I'd say pop over and see with you own two eyes!! as you are only 3-4miles down the road from me...and it's been a while since we had a catch up!)

Thanks
Richard
User avatar
FioranoCars
Zen Master
Zen Master
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:26 am
Location: London, UK

Re: CANBUS on Bosch MED9.1.1 Lamborghini

Postby STC » Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:06 pm

Hello again Richard
as you are only 3-4miles down the road from me...and it's been a while since we had a catch up!)

Howl when you get back and I will dive in for a cuppa.

Back to the Lambo, I'm trying to understand the "As Built" topology of this so I do need to bang on about the Eobd wires. Sorry. Ignore me if you wish, no offence taken.

VAG CAN has in the past messed with my mental health, rather than hate it .... - I chose to get up close and personal with it. Then kicked it into touch. :D
Be so kind as to Humour me ?

At the DLC, (forget 4,5 &16) Which Pins are populated and the wire colours please?
At the Instrument Cluster, how many twisted pairs ?, Wire colours & Pin numbers of the twisted pairs ?

At the Engine ECU's - Wire Colours of the Can Lines ? What do you have on Pin 86 through the eye of the scope as you attempt communication, code read, code delete, dynamic data display ......... And wire colour again please.

Lastly, Can line colours at ABS & Transmission if either or both are easy enough to access in the time you have.

Have sent you a PM.
Last edited by STC on Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
STC
Zen Master
Zen Master
 
Posts: 369
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:10 am

Re: CANBUS on Bosch MED9.1.1 Lamborghini

Postby FioranoCars » Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:35 pm

Hi STC
I'll get some answers for you as best they can, just got back to the connected world, though I'm still away, so maybe in next 24 hours some updates.

Kettle will be on when i return! :D

Richard
User avatar
FioranoCars
Zen Master
Zen Master
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:26 am
Location: London, UK

Re: CANBUS on Bosch MED9.1.1 Lamborghini

Postby FioranoCars » Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:38 am

At the DLC, (forget 4,5 &16) Which Pins are populated and the wire colours please?

Populated Pins, with our pairing of cables based on signals seen:
01 - Blue + Black = Live 12v (Fuse F29 - 5amp)
4+5 both Black
06 - Brown + Black = CanBus 500k High(Pair with Pin 14) [2.5v Base +1v High]
07 - Green + Red - err... not seen any signal here ...
08 - Orange + Green = CanBus 100k High (Pair with Pin 09) [0v Base +4v High]
09 - Orange + Brown = CanBus 100k Low (Pair with Pin 08) [5v Base -4v Low]
12- Orange + Purple = CanBus 100k High (Pair with Pin 13) [0v Base +4v High]
13 - Orange + Grey = CanBus 100k Low (Pair with Pin 12) [5v Base -4v Low]
14 - Orange = CanBus 500k Low (Pair with Pin 06) [2.5v Base -1v Low]
16 - Blue + Red = Live +30 12v (Fuse F36 - 5amp)
See Picture attached!
will have to recheck Pin7, but as only 1 wire remains unaccounted for it must be a K line, if it is used, will try triggering via all Protocols/ECU communications via Diagnostic Tools and see if we can establish what if anything it is.


At the Instrument Cluster, how many twisted pairs ?, Wire colours & Pin numbers of the twisted pairs ?

Not yet accessed, maybe Monday or Tuesday if we feel we need to ...

At the Engine ECU's - Wire Colours of the Can Lines ?

Pins:
67- Orange + Black - CanBus 500k Low (Pair with Pin A68) [2.5v Base +1v Low]
68 - Orange + Black - CanBus 500k High (Pair with Pin A67) [2.5v Base +1v High]

89 - Red - CanBus - 500k Low - [2.5v Base +1v Low]
90 - Brown - CanBus - 500k Low - [2.5v Base +1v Low] - Duplicates Signal on Pin 67

Gallardo LP560 Engine ECU Pin out colours.png
Pin Out Diagram


What do you have on Pin 86 through the eye of the scope as you attempt communication

Nothing to show, there is no wiring in Pin86 or Pin87, they are blank on Both Engine ECU
We've shown previously Pins 67+68 and 89+90 - we will test all 150 pins for data signals on Monday (have tested the 94 pins on the larger connector ("A" or "K" labelled depending on whose pic you see! Se we'll stick to 94 pin verse 60 pin :? ).

Can line colours at ABS & Transmission

Transmission will get on Monday (Pins 33&45 are a pair), probably ABS (Pins 14&26) too ... think the ABS will have more than 1 CAN and probably 1 or more K lines, will check.

We're going to restart on Monday from blank sheet, no assumptions, as we have too much data, some of which is conflicting, so human error has crept in, plus I'm back :lol: :lol: :lol:

STC See PM (and txt messages!)

Richard
Attachments
OBD socket rear.jpg
Rear of OBD
User avatar
FioranoCars
Zen Master
Zen Master
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:26 am
Location: London, UK

Re: CANBUS on Bosch MED9.1.1 Lamborghini

Postby STC » Sat Oct 01, 2016 2:04 pm

plus I'm back :lol: :lol: :lol:

STC See PM (and txt messages!)


I smell a fix in the air :D :lol: :lol:
User avatar
STC
Zen Master
Zen Master
 
Posts: 369
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:10 am

Re: CANBUS on Bosch MED9.1.1 Lamborghini

Postby FioranoCars » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:24 am

Fix, well not quite!

Ok, so we have fixed the Private CAN on the Engine ECU :D , so I'll post what that looks like shortly, but this did NOT have any positive impact on the no drive issue. :evil: :evil: :evil:

We are now confident, apart from some ECU's having issues of their own, that the CAN-BUS is not the root of all evil :?

The problem centres around the Gearbox ECU and control commands from a K-line to the GFA (Body Computer) which via Pico again and diagnsotic parameter watching, have initially ruled out as a problem (the K line, not the TCU or GFA)...

We have a noise issue, well big difference between our 2 scopes, and I'll post separately about that, as it's not core to this problem, and has a wider set of issues.

So, the car diagnsotic process has now moved to a more ECU and Error code discussion forum, and that thread is over here, for those interested:
http://forums.ross-tech.com/showthread.php?7998-Gallardo-LP560-MY09-Starts-but-Egears-not-engaging&p=74656 ... so I will not duplicate it all here!

I thought the lack of Pico specific information/relevance merited an semi cross post and the information there might ignite some distant memory of an VAG they once fixed !!! ... but don't worry I will post the waveforms for the engine cans, and other relevant info, plus of course how the final fix comes about! ... or when it returns to a more Pico centric diagnostic ...

Of course, anyone here who can add anything, please do so, here, there or PM, we're still less than satisfied with what we know and how best to obtain certainty in our diagnosis, although we are proceeding with a repair plan (sadly ECU replacement based on gut and correlation rather than repeatable concrete facts :cry: :cry: ) ... not ideal, but forwards we must move.

STC, coffee still waiting, I'll make a fresh pot when you're about next, and MASSIVE fingers crossed for you. Txt me Monday when you hear, shoulder for tears or cork pops :D

Thanks
Richard Lukins
FioranoCars.com
User avatar
FioranoCars
Zen Master
Zen Master
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:26 am
Location: London, UK

Re: CANBUS on Bosch MED9.1.1 Lamborghini

Postby KimAndersen » Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:10 am

Hi Richard

I've followed this thread a while both here and at the ross-tech forum. I must say that it's a rather complex problem this car has developed.

Despite the many problems/dtc you have experienced - have you managed to narrow down the problem to the TCM module or the tranmission itself.

I´ve looked at the DTC that are related to the TCM ( P060A - P17C1 - P17C0 -P0914 ) and from the documentation that I got over this Lamborghini Gallardo MY09 there no description of these DTC which I find very strange or suspicious.

The only DTC that are covered in this information that I have are the DTC P1702 and with following error message "Impossible combination of substitute functions or not allowed actuating of valves".

There are lots of other DTC from the TCM - but they start with P27XX.

I´m thinking that these DTC from the TCM maybe corrupted or someone have tried to uptate or reflash the TCM module before you got this car into your workshop.

It is just a thought. :wink:

Regards
Kim
KimAndersen
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 159
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:53 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: CANBUS on Bosch MED9.1.1 Lamborghini

Postby FioranoCars » Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:43 pm

KimAndersen wrote:I´ve looked at the DTC that are related to the TCM ( P060A - P17C1 - P17C0 -P0914 ) and from the documentation that I got over this Lamborghini Gallardo MY09 there no description of these DTC which I find very strange or suspicious.


Thanks for the reply, Gearbox DTC are a pain to decode at the best of times ...

These 4 DTC are valid/correct and although the code descriptive text is generic/ambiguoius to say the least, they did make us seriously consider the valve block/solenoids ... but after some tests, not completely exhaustive, and based on the operation we had seen, plus some parameters watching, we felt that the TCU was more likely to be at fault.

Ok, so why, well the Engagement and Selection position sensors (and the clutch position) all reported values that were in the realms of reasonable, and changed when the car was able to select 1st or Neutral etc. And it's not normal for these to fail intermittently, they either work or die, and would be extremely rare to be able to mess about as per our fault.

Solenoids, again they were able to command Neutral everytime, cleanly (normally once 1st had been selected and the engine switched off, as Neutral would not paddle select). So the solenoids were correctly commanded and position sensors correctly reported the Neutral position and hence allowed the car to start. Not something faulty positions sensors or solenoids would achieve. (and yes the car was in 1st and would not roll, and yes netral was obtained, and car did not lurch forwards :D and then would roll/be pushable!)

In terms of the paddle inputs to the TCU via the K-line from the GFA ECU, I have now been able to confirm the inputs as valid for Up/Down/Neutral (both paddles) and Auto, however Reverse is still problematic, but don't think it's significant to our problem, and might be 100% fine, just causing the ECU to trip up, rather than the signal being wrong or corrupt.

Testing the position sensors is not easy, and would mean manually triggering the solenoids (or further stripping to move the sector by hand - not easy) to go further, not economic or likely to give a definative answer ...

So that's why we've gone for a new TCU, imperfect, but that's the way of the motor trade sometimes!

Thanks again for the reply
Richard
User avatar
FioranoCars
Zen Master
Zen Master
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:26 am
Location: London, UK

Re: CANBUS on Bosch MED9.1.1 Lamborghini

Postby KimAndersen » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:47 pm

Hi Richard

What's the adaptation status of Measuring value block 64 when you use the VCDS software to read out diagnostic codes.

The value "0" means old or invalid eeprom or new TCU
The value "1" means valid eeprom data.

Regards
Kim :wink:
KimAndersen
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 159
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:53 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: CANBUS on Bosch MED9.1.1 Lamborghini

Postby FioranoCars » Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:24 pm

Hi Kim
Which part of 64 ? 1-4? As I've no idea of any of their values!
Wil post all 4 in 10 hours :D :D
Maybe confirmation of our decision ....

But have got to try and recode an esp sensor for Bosch 8.1 abs which is also appearing less than straight forward ... As is coding the new TCU (anyone done a Marelli CFC 311? No, not a 3.2x like maserati, but a 3.11 like only the LP560)?

About to try several a4 and a5 which may or may not be equivalent (for the esp) :cry:

Reporting back shortly....

Richard
User avatar
FioranoCars
Zen Master
Zen Master
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:26 am
Location: London, UK

PreviousNext

Return to Diagnostic discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests