Ford Smart Charge problem

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Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby csasziszerviz » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:16 pm

Hi,

I have Ford Focus MK1, with 1,8 Tdci engine, and smart generator. Three or four month before this, I have a charging problem, beacuse the battery voltage goes down, the car is stopped, but the battery check lamp (sorry, I don't know, what is the good word for this lamp) didn't show that. The problem was the short bronze brush and the and the ring what connect to this. We changed the complete voltage regulator and the ring.

After that the car was OK for 1-2 weeks, but sometimes the charging check lamp shows, something wrong in the system. If the lapm is on, the system voltage is 14.1-14,3 V. I thied a lot of thing, and I find what happens when the lamp switch on. When I use a lot of electrical system, like lamps, fog laps, window heating, air conditioning, radio, etc.. the battery voltage goes down and the battery check lamp switch on.

I tried to measure with the pico, what happens in the charging system, but I don't know:

I do it good or not, and what I see on the screen????

If somebody knows the answer to my questions, please write it.

My measure:
Channel A: (blue line on pictures) The blue cable on the voltage regulator connector
Channel B: (red line on pictures) The grey cable on the voltage regulator connector
Channel C: (green line on the pictures) Battery voltage
Channel D: (brown line on the pictures) Alternator current

The measures on the pico are selected between vertical cursors.

I cut off three picture of the measure file, because this is very big.
On the first picture the car is working on idle, and I don't use electrican systems.

onlyidle.jpg
only idle, small load


After that I switched on everything, what I can. Lamps, fog lamps, window heaters, air conditioning, etc...
The system voltage goes down, the current goes up.

onlyidlelowvoltage.jpg
system with big electrician load, without check lamp


When the alternator is working under big load 2 or 3 sec, the check lamp switch on, but the voltage is grow up for "normal level" (14,3-14,4V)

onlyidlelampon.jpg
big load, lamp on


I have some questions abuot my measurement:
1. Channel A and channel B is PWM sign or "message" between alternator and ECU?
2. Is this a possible solution to change the voltage regulator?
3. When the lamp come on, why grow up the system voltage?

Thanks to read my writing. I hope you understand my problem and somebody can help me.

Have a nice day!
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Re: Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby andrewbishop66 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:02 pm

q1 Blue is ecu demand to alternator red is alternator feed back to ecu

no load looks wrong (wrong/faulty battery ?) these are fussy about battery also had problems with re manufactured alternators compared to oem.
feed back to ecu looks very active on No load compared to the ones ive seen in the past

q2 have you already changed the brush pack fault (code in ecu ?)

q3 when the lamp is on (put on by ecu ) I think but dont quote me it in a failsafe mode so it will still charge battery

Thanks Andrew
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Re: Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby csasziszerviz » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:53 am

Thanks the answer Andrew.

If I understand you well, the alternator feed back is the red sign, so in the second picture the alternator send "message" to the ECU about max load (because the duty cycle is 95-98%)? Is that mean the alternator would like to work in maximum load (90A), but it couldn't because the current what I measure is only 65-70A?

I have changed the voltage regulator 3 or 4 months, baut I don't understand what does your question mean:
"have you already changed the brush pack fault (code in ecu ?)" :( Sorry, but I'm not the best in english... :(

Thanks the help.
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Re: Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby andrewbishop66 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:02 am

Hi

Brush pack = regulator

what is the fault code in engine ecu

I think the ecu is not seeing what it expects on the feedback

Not much help I know but I dont know the exact duty cycle ect

is the battery the correct one

Thanks Andrew
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Re: Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby STC » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:54 pm

I'm thinking that alternator has a 3 pin plug?

Pin 2 Load Request - Increase Load to promote Change here
Pin 1 Feedback - This should react to Load Request and Reply with Change back probed at ECU
Pin 3 Reference Voltage - There should be No Volt Drop between the battery + terminal and this pin.

If you unplug this it should continue to charge as a conventional alternator.

A perfect example of where we need more than 4 Channels just to test an alternator:

One on each pin =3
Charging Amps +1
Battery Positive +1 =5
Then another on Alternator ground would be 6 just to look at an alternator. Even if we could use 2 separate scopes but look at the same timeline on the same screen
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Re: Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby andrewbishop66 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:18 pm

Nice Idea
just wondering if the pico data logger has enough band width might just try next time we have smartcharge in the workshop its not so user friendly ie you have to add resistors for the volt range. sure one of ours is set for 20 volts always fun to try

Andrew
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Re: Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby Technician » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:06 pm

STC wrote:I'm thinking that alternator has a 3 pin plug?


A perfect example of where we need more than 4 Channels just to test an alternator:



https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/4 ... cilloscope

Somebody already thought about that one :)
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Re: Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby STC » Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:30 pm

Somebody already thought about that one :)


No Sir, they have not!! Well not Pico as yet. (BTW - Are you stalking me ? Digging up these historic threads and posts)

The 4824 is not designed, marketed or fully capable as an automotive scope. Neither is it supported by their Automotive Software, for some very valid reasons.

If you are not careful, a simple automotive relay coil collapsing has the potential to toast the 4824.

If and when Pico do release a 8 Channel Automotive Scope, it will be an awesome tool, there is a market and a need for more than 4 channels, if only occasionally.

Some reading to help you dispel the myths.

topic10269.html

and

https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/4 ... ifications
Last edited by STC on Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby Technician » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:35 pm

Sorry about that PhilS did previously advise me about the 8 channel scope back in February now having read back through threads. I completely forgot what he advised, just thinking Pico are automotive. I was just reading the Smart Charging Thread that's all.
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Re: Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby Liteace » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:44 am

STC wrote:
If you are not careful, a simple automotive relay coil collapsing has the potential to toast the 4824.




PicoScope 4824: Overvoltage protection ±100 V (DC + AC peak) + TA197 10:1 or 20:1 attenuator then no problem !
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