Ford Smart Charge problem

Ask for and share advice on using the PicoScope kit to fix vehicles here.

Re: Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby Technician » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:02 am

Liteace wrote:
STC wrote:
If you are not careful, a simple automotive relay coil collapsing has the potential to toast the 4824.




PicoScope 4824: Overvoltage protection ±100 V (DC + AC peak) + TA197 10:1 or 20:1 attenuator then no problem !

so we can use the 8 channel scope for automotive use then :D
Technician
TwoWaves
TwoWaves
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:32 pm

Re: Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby STC » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:49 am

so we can use the 8 channel scope for automotive use then :D


"YES" you can but it wont have the same automotive specific flexibility, function, advanced features as the Dedicated Automotive Scopes. So the "YES" in the previous sentence now becomes a "NO"

The Vantage Pro that you have is poles apart from the Pico, just a toy by comparison. If you do ever become familiar with a Pico Automotive Scope, you may then begin to understand the magic and the difference.
User avatar
STC
Banned
 
Posts: 790
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:10 am

Re: Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby Tronic » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:29 pm

STC

YES" you can but it wont have the same automotive specific flexibility, function, advanced features as the Dedicated Automotive Scopes.


Could you please tell us what are the differences between the 8 channel scope and the automotive 4425 that don't make 4824 suitable for automotive measurements? Are there software differences compared to the automotive?

The only scope we have is the automotive so I can't tell, my workbench consist of much different scopes. Have not read the data sheet for the 8 channel scope yet as I think you would tell us, I am quite curious.

Here is one thing that solve the problem you took up as first obstacle.

As Litace wrote:

PicoScope 4824: Overvoltage protection ±100 V (DC + AC peak) + TA197 10:1 or 20:1 attenuator then no problem!


I don't know how many MS/s/channel you got for each channel if all 8 are used at the same time. Guess it is more than enough for automotive stuff.

Bjorn
Tronic
TwoWaves
TwoWaves
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:43 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby andrewbishop66 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:02 pm

The only thing i would say is

a bench scope or usb scope designed for electronics will work and for a few years i used one. I had various over the years stating with a tektronics that had plug in front ends depending on the work ie band width then moved on to dso

but my hobby has always been electronics :D so that's my excuse

and I now have the snap on vantage and verus

I toyed with the idea of buying a old pico electronic scope because they were easily available 2nd hand but in the end opted for a automotive

And it been one of the best choices ever

I have worked in the automotive industry since I was 18 >50 tomorrow

and I can say this you can guarantee that someone would forget the attenuator and screw it up

so although any scope with a attenuator or potential divider across the front end can be used.
In the long run you miss out on the automotive database and the automotive software which in its self is part of what makes this a fantastic tool

Im afraid pico software just leaves snap on in the dark but I would still not like to lose my vantage as its very quick and mobile to set up

Just my thoughts its easy to buy a second hand scope only to find you have no access to the automotive software

Andrew
andrewbishop66
TwoWaves
TwoWaves
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:16 am

Re: Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby STC » Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:11 pm

Tronic


first and foremost I am a car man from an era some 35 years ago, all this electronics and scope stuff is something I have had to learn along the way. Some of this stuff still goes way over my head, like a Giraffes Prized Jewels :D :D

So I am not the best person to answer comments such as:
"I don't know how many MS/s/channel you got for each channel if all 8 are used at the same time."


Here is a link to a post by Steve Smith explaining things far better than I could, and as a Pico man he will have more insight, so from the horses mouth as it were.

topic10269.html.

Note that Liteace is telling us that the 4824 has an Max. input Voltage of 100v yet Steve Smith quotes just 50v. Not sure what is going on there ??? Can someone straighten that out ?

Until such time that the 4824 or an alternative 8 channel offering from Pico is able to work with the Automotive software then I would guess that the features listed below would not be available.

1. Waveform Library
2. Support on Automotive Forum
3. Pico Diagnostics - (Battery Test, Compression Test, Cylinder Balance, Propshaft Balancing, NVH)
4. I am not sure if the non Automotive software would still support Math Channels such as "Crank"
5. Floating earth on each Channel.

I speak only for my self here; Points 1, 2, & 4 are essential to me whereas I could live without "3" above (or find a work around)
The Jury is out on point 5. - Better to have it than not.

As for the 50/100v Max Input, that too we could work around by being careful with attenuators so not a massive issue. (Unless you forget then it's £1600 disappearing up someone's shirt ! More if you are not Vat Registered)

In an Ideal world I would like to see the software written in such a way that 2 or 3 x 4 Channel Pico scopes can be viewed on the same screen and timeline, that would satisfy 8 or 12 channels. Great for the boys working on the big 12 cylinder exotics.
Last edited by STC on Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
STC
Banned
 
Posts: 790
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:10 am

Re: Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby Technician » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:37 am

STC


In an Ideal world I would like to see the software written in such a way that 2 or 3 x 4 Channel Pico scopes can be viewed on the same screen and timeline, that would satisfy 8 or 12 channels. Great for the boys working on the big 12 cylinder exotics.


Can they not use this device then; https://www.picoauto.com/products/ignit ... gnal-mixer
Technician
TwoWaves
TwoWaves
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:32 pm

Re: Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby Technician » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:46 am

andrewbishop66 wrote:
I have worked in the automotive industry since I was 18 >50 tomorrow



Not much difference between us then Andrew, I guess looking back I was lucky when I left school as I walked out the school gate say Friday 15.40 PM as I remember back in those days, Monday the following week I started my apprenticeship at National Carriers. Big cold commercial garage with an 8.00 am start to 5.00 pm finish, long hours at first for a 16 year old :) I was greater than > 50 lol last month, and believe me when I get home from work I know I am over 50 :mrgreen:
Technician
TwoWaves
TwoWaves
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:32 pm

Re: Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby STC » Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:26 am

Can they not use this device then; https://www.picoauto.com/products/ignit ... gnal-mixer


I am well aware of the oscilloscope accessories available for automotive use from Pico and other manufacturers, also several that are not (or were not) manufactured or sold but have / had to be "home made"

As for the Mix Master you link points too:

Of no use on a Diesel Engine of any kind, I was thinking V10 & 12 TDi's in my last post that you refer to / quote from.

Petrol's - Yes they can but only to look at Secondary Ignition - Nothing more - and that is not as "Fashionable" as it once was.

Testing a Wideband O2 sensor needs 4 channels https://www.picoauto.com/library/traini ... gen-sensor That would be 8 channels to test 2 simultaneously on a "V" engine or those with 2 Pre Cat Widebands on a 4 cylinder Inline.

Equally not much comfort to a man wishing to look at actuation and feedback simultaneously on multiple throttle bodies.

Richard @ Fiorino Cars has a conundrum going on right now with a Lambo E Gear Actuator with 4/5 Solenoids and Hydraulic feed and return pipes. To monitor that component comprehensively and completely he would need / like more than 8 channels. That is a real life scenario with a component that costs £9000+ to replace. I wouldn't want to even begin to contemplate the ramifications of getting that wrong.

What price would you put on a pair of tight fitting brown wipe clean PVC trousers if that landed on your lap ?

Purchasing an additional 2x 4425 Starter Kits (if they could be "daisy chained" in the software to get 12 channels) and an additional WPS at a real cost of ~£1800 (tax & vat deducted) seems like a bargain all of a sudden. ??

Of course he will find a work around with the channels available to him, however additional channels would without doubt be a god send to save time and paint him a clearer picture of what is happening on the dark side.

We could now open the 16 / 20 / 24 Channel can of worms. Please - let's not go there.
Last edited by STC on Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
STC
Banned
 
Posts: 790
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:10 am

Re: Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby STC » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:37 am

Andrew
I would still not like to lose my vantage as its very quick and mobile to set up

I agree, we don't need the Power of Pico on every job we look at, ( I wouldn't leave home without it though) I have a Snap on M2 and a Fluke 123 which are great, convenient, quick, everyday Multimeters with 2 channel scopes.



I have worked in the automotive industry since I was 18 > 50 tomorrow


Happy Birthday - Make it a memorable one :D :D
User avatar
STC
Banned
 
Posts: 790
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:10 am

Re: Ford Smart Charge problem

Postby Liteace » Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:02 am

STC wrote:
Note that Liteace is telling us that the 4824 has an Max. input Voltage of 100v yet Steve Smith quotes just 50v. Not sure what is going on there ??? Can someone straighten that out ?





Yes I'll straighten that out , if you read what I wrote:

PicoScope 4824: Overvoltage protection ±100 V (DC + AC peak)

I never said it has a MAX input of 100v, Overvoltage 100v,

When your automotive relay coil collapses with a 10:1 or 20:1 Attenuator fitted you should be ok and hopefully wont as you put it "toast the 4824"
Attachments
pico 4824.PNG
Liteace
TwoWaves
TwoWaves
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:25 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Diagnostic discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests