Alternating Injektor Driver Problem Opel Astra 16

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Alternating Injektor Driver Problem Opel Astra 16

Postby gbrodner » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:50 am

Hello,
I got this 2004 Opel Astra that comes from another garage with new Ignition coil and camshaft sensor. The problem is, it has a misfire in alternating cylinders with a code "camshaft position". But I think Crankshaft and Camshaft sensors have a good signal and the timing is set correctly. I have controlled the markings from the timing belt. The disks at camshaft and crankshaft are fixed!
During the motorstart ALL Injektor are triggered. After motorstart the four Injektors are controlled allways paired alternatingly. I think the Ignition-Timing is good.
Please look at the captures and tell me what you think is the problem.
Greetings from Munich with the worst English :oops:
Hans
Attachments
Vauxhall_Corsa_2008_Petrol_comparison_library.psdata
comparison from Waveform-library - not the same car, but nearly the same system
(686.32 KiB) Downloaded 29 times
Opel_Astra_2004_Petrol_Voltage_supply_ECU_klein.psdata
motorstart backpinned at the ECU
(1.99 MiB) Downloaded 18 times
Opel_Astra_2004_Petrol_Injektor_Ignition_klein.psdata
backpinned at the ECU
(2.01 MiB) Downloaded 26 times
Opel_Astra_2004_Petrol_four_Injektordrivers_klein.psdata
motorstart + motor running ; backpinned at the ECU
(1.85 MiB) Downloaded 19 times
Opel_Astra_2004_Petrol_crankshaft_camshaft_klein.psdata
backpinned at the ECU , the same as in the Waveform-library
(2.75 MiB) Downloaded 26 times
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Re: Alternating Injektor Driver Problem Opel Astra 16

Postby Fat Freddy » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:20 am

What engine is this?

How often does it log this Cam sensor code? Is that when the injectors get cut?

Have you tried a tap test on this yet?

HTH
FF
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Re: Alternating Injektor Driver Problem Opel Astra 16

Postby Mick » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:22 pm

Attachments
odd pulse.jpg
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Re: Alternating Injektor Driver Problem Opel Astra 16

Postby STC » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:09 pm

Mick

Stop looking at Injectors and Ignition Coils for now.

With a Cam Position Fault Code you MUST Fix that First !

What is the Engine Code as FF already asked ?

What Exact Camshaft Code are you getting P0340 / P0341 ......... ???
Please Provide any associated Freeze Frame Data - You may have to go into OBD for that.

Is the ECU bolted to the side of the cylinder head ? If so, Get hold of the ECU plugs and Stress them with some minor violence. Can you make the fault code come and go as you wish ??

Do you have APP, Fuel Pump Relay, Immo Faults Codes ?

I note that you have scoped the Cam Sensor Backprobed at ECU CONNECTOR. The eyes of the scope will not, can not See any further than the sharp point at the end of your probe pin. It does enough to tell you if your fault is Upstream or Downstream from the Sharp end of that probe.

Hope that helps you
Last edited by STC on Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alternating Injektor Driver Problem Opel Astra 16

Postby Mick » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:22 pm

STC wrote:Mick

Stop looking at Injectors and Ignition Coils for now.


STC
I am sure you made a typo on who you were replying to here. :shock:

That being said
I would suggest that you compare the know good wave that was put up to the one Hans took from his vehicle and see if you see the highlighted selection I posted in my image in the known good :D
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Re: Alternating Injektor Driver Problem Opel Astra 16

Postby STC » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:42 pm

Yes Mick, a Typo

Should have been "Hans" Innocent Mistake. Sincere Apologies, Let us move on and try to help Hans.

Do We/Hans really have a known good Mick ?? Hans has a 2004 Vehicle, Engine code as yet Unknown. And the "Known Good" is from a 2008 Vehicle.

48 Months apart. ???? Corsa C to Corsa D - Not sure!!

I can guess that is the reason why FF asked for the Engine Code, I can be 100% certain that is the reason I asked for the Exact Engine code.

Pico provide an excellent facility in the way of the Waveform Library. I can be certain that Pico do not ask that you "Look at the nearest variable" if your vehicle and relevant waveform is not in the Pico Database.

My Previous Post and Advise (Other than the Name Typo) still stands - Sorry
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Re: Alternating Injektor Driver Problem Opel Astra 16

Postby gbrodner » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:18 pm

Thanks to all for the good tips. Today i have another session with the Opel... :)
Now I am back an at first I have to tell the story:

I phone the other shop and ask about the exact history of the car. They say that the car has misfire on various cylinders. They read the codes: "anything with camshaft sensor". They change the sensor. After that the misfire was still present. Now they change the Ignition-Coil (Trial and Error :roll: ). With the Ignition Coil they change also the ignition cable. It is a bundle to buy.
Then the misfire was still not eliminated!!

At this point, the car came to me. Yesterday i made all the oscilloscope recordings.
Cause of the reply of Fat Freddy, i read the error memory once again: No errors.
Then i control the timing belt once again - no error.
After that i look at the oscilloscope recordings from yesterday. I notice something in the recording "Opel_Astra_2004_Petrol_Injektor_Ignition.psdata" (It is much longer than "Opel_Astra_2004_Petrol_Injektor_Ignition_klein.psdata". There is occasionally after the switch off the Ignition Circuit "green" a number of inductive interference in circuit "brown".
Where are they come from and maybe the interferences have a retroactive effect on the ecu?? Maybe they come from the output stage within the ignitioncoil-pack. I took the old ignitioncoil from the trunk.
After the change from new coil to old coil the motor is running perfect! The new ignition coil is faulty!
But why is the car now running? The misfire doesn´t come from the camshaft-Sensor and doesn´t come from the old ignition-coil! The old ignition-cables were broken. They had very small marten bite :twisted:
Many hours and a lot of money because such a simple thing!!! The effect off "trial and error"!
Unfortunately there was no time left to hook up the pico once again for a "known good" signal.

Many many thanks for the quick response - it helps me to find the error!
Greetings from Munich :mrgreen:
Hans :oops: :roll:
Attachments
Opel_Astra_2004_Petrol_Injektor_Ignition_faulty.jpg
Point A - Induktion caused by the other Ignition-Circuit?
Point B - End of Injektion....
fehlerspeicher_01.jpg
No trouble codes!!
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Re: Alternating Injektor Driver Problem Opel Astra 16

Postby Fat Freddy » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:34 pm

48 Months apart. ???? Corsa C to Corsa D - Not sure!!

I can guess that is the reason why FF asked for the Engine Code, I can be 100% certain that is the reason I asked for the Exact Engine code.


Yes, that's one of the reasons. As it stands, we (I) have nothing to compare it with. I certainly would not compare a cam c̶o̶d̶e̶ waveform from another model some 4 years later that may, or may not have the same engine. The recent post on the dodge motor swap using the same engine is a perfect example of why you do not do that.

As it stands I can not fault that output with what the OP has presented. I do not refer to 'nearly the same system' (the OPs description) when comparing wave forms.

Cheers
FF

edit: Crossed post.
Last edited by Fat Freddy on Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alternating Injektor Driver Problem Opel Astra 16

Postby Fat Freddy » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:45 pm

Excellent out come and great work Hans.

I think we have all learned something here. :wink:

Cheers
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Re: Alternating Injektor Driver Problem Opel Astra 16

Postby STC » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:19 am

Hans

Good News that you have a Fix :D

Do you have the Correct Engine Code For this Car ??

Would be a great help to the community if you were to upload your Known Good Waveforms to the Library.

Many Thanks
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