*NEW* : PicoScope 4225 & 4425 Automotive scopes released!

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*NEW* : PicoScope 4225 & 4425 Automotive scopes released!

Postby AuthorMike » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:33 am

Yes, that's right! We've launched two new automotive oscilloscopes!

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With the introduction of the PicoScope 4225 and 4425 automotive scopes, all aspects of performance have been improved – but the price remains the same!

With the ability to capture signals faster than ever; with sampling rates of up to 400 million samples per second, there is nothing that can escape the scrutiny of PicoScope. It can capture CAN and FlexRay signals, and has the speed to handle future needs as vehicle technology changes.

As well as capturing faster signals, our new scopes also outperform other scopes thanks to the 250 million samples of always on memory. PicoScope ensures that you can effortlessly capture every detail of the signal. Never again will you miss those hard–to–find intermittent faults.

We've upped the input range to ±200 V eliminating the need for external attenuators for most vehicle tests, and included two brand new features too:

Independent floating inputs
A major innovation on these new scopes are the independent floating inputs; think of it as 4 separate 1-channel oscilloscopes in a box all sharing the same timebase and control. This means that all inputs can be used in differential mode (e.g. CAN High and CAN Low signals), or across non-grounded components such as 12 V injectors, or for voltage drop testing using a single input (maximum 30 V common mode voltage difference between channel grounds).

ConnectDetect™
The new PicoScope 4225 and 4425 scopes include a handy feature to detect when you have made a good connection. When you are trying to probe in those difficult-to-reach places, the new PicoScopes can display the connection status on direct on your screen, ensuring fewer frustrations with poor connections.

For more information, specifications and ordering information see the automotive oscilloscope page on our website: https://www.picoauto.com/automotive-oscilloscope.html

Alternatively, browse our new kit options: https://www.picoauto.com/automotive-kit.html
Mike Valentine
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Re: *NEW* : PicoScope 4225 & 4425 Automotive scopes released

Postby volrem » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:50 am

Awesome. Looks like I have to selle my old kit and buy this new one.

If it had two more channels then it would be perfect for me.
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Re: *NEW* : PicoScope 4225 & 4425 Automotive scopes released

Postby hexibot43 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:09 pm

Any chance there is going to be an upgrade path? Trade in my 4423 for the 4425?
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Re: *NEW* : PicoScope 4225 & 4425 Automotive scopes released

Postby AuthorMike » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:02 am

hexibot43 wrote:Any chance there is going to be an upgrade path? Trade in my 4423 for the 4425?


Hi Hexibot,

Thanks for the enquiry. From previous experience we know there is a market out there for pre-owned PicoScopes, and it offers our customers a better price than something we could offer. Due to this we do not offer trade-ins as it would not benefit either party.

Of course it's only the scope itself you would need to change, your existing accessories will work with the new PicoScope 4225 and 4425 scopes. The new scopes are in our latest design, and therefore the foam cut out in the kit box is different to that of the kits sold with the 4423 and 4223. Worth noting if you travel around with your kit.

We will continue to upgrade software for the 4423 and 4223, so do not fear. Even if you do not upgrade you will still continue to benefit from free software updates. :D

I hope this helps,
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Re: *NEW* : PicoScope 4225 & 4425 Automotive scopes released

Postby Valhalla » Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:00 pm

Mike,
This looks very interesting from the perspective of floating grounds. I am trying to get some information about what sort of coupling is, in-fact, in place on the 4425 between the grounds - the website has little extra info on this.

My main problem with the 4423 is where I'm looking at ABS sensor voltages on certain older models of cars - a specific example is the Landrover Discovery2 - which do not like the internal grounding of the 4423 one bit. I've tried a few experiments where I have tried to pair-up the theoretical polarities between sensors (say, the two front wheel units) using first one configuration of pins on the second sensor, then the other, but in all cases the result is the same; the measured signals are weakened by having sensors measured side-by-side, and an ABS controller error is flagged at higher vehicle speeds.

Having all four inputs as truly floating relative to each other would be a major incentive to upgrade (even though my 4423 is quite young!), purely from the time-saving aspect of being able to measure all four wheels on any car in one test-trip, rather than having to guess each time which one might be giving trouble.

Thanks, Stuart
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Re: *NEW* : PicoScope 4225 & 4425 Automotive scopes released

Postby Autonerdz » Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:45 pm

Stuart,

Analog ABS wheel speed sensors are not a problem for the 4423 as long as you do not follow the automotive menu hook up or setup. In the menu AC coupling is improperly selected and the photo is one of a ground loop nightmare.

Choose DC and reference only one channel to bat neg or all to the same bat neg point. Only probe the sensors with the signal input wire, never the ground (unless you intend to use only the one channel)
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Re: *NEW* : PicoScope 4225 & 4425 Automotive scopes released

Postby Steve Smith » Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:34 pm

Thank you Stuart and Tom for the feedback and the “heads up” re ABS testing.

What you have both highlighted is a typical example of how the floating input architecture of the new 4000 series scope will overcome these issues of measuring multiple sensors with floating grounds simultaneously.

I have to say, I had to get my head around the term “floating ground” given we are trained that negative, ground and earth are all the same at 0 V. This is how we measure the majority of signals, with “reference to ground” but in cases of signals such as above where each speed sensor is not connected to a true ground (floating) we have to alter our technique.

As Tom has rightly mentioned, multiple road speed signals from the Discovery can be measured simultaneously with the 4423 with reference to vehicle ground and not speed sensor ground.
(Test lead signal wire to SP+ of each sensor, and test lead ground wire to vehicle ground)

The ABS help file in the automotive menu describes simultaneous speed sensor signal measurement assuming a non-floating ground style ABS sensor system. This may not be clear from the description on “How to connect the oscilloscope” however the text clearly states there are several different connection methods depending on whether you wish to look at individual speed senor or a pair of sensors

The text goes on to say Technical data will be needed in order to ensure the correct connections are made; not only that, but the right two sensor wires must be connected with the correct polarity if the correct signal is to be displayed on the oscilloscope.

The help file is written with a view to disconnecting the sensors prior to testing and connection of the test leads. This then removes our concern with floating grounds. However, the same test lead connections are utilised during the “Road-test” section and I assume the ABS ECU block connector is connected to the ECU, which could present an issue identified by Stuart with reference to the amplitude of each speed sensor output using the 4423 but not with the 4425.

When viewing the ABS speed sensor signal, coupling either AC or DC would be an individual choice depending on what the technician would prefer to see, just the AC signal or everything present on the signal line AC and DC?
Coupling DC could potentially identify if the speed signal used a floating ground architecture as the AC signal would not centrally cross 0 V.

I will most certainly add new information into the help file to clarify these concerns and add the various techniques that can be applied given the introduction of the new 4000 series scopes.

I hope this helps……take care……..Steve
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Re: *NEW* : PicoScope 4225 & 4425 Automotive scopes released

Postby Valhalla » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:53 pm

Tom & Steve,
Many thanks for your feedbacks, it's much appreciated.

Yes, I had considered using batt -ve as a common reference to a single measure point (i.e. one side of the ABS sensor output pins), but I need to re-visit this measurement again; sometime last year, I think that I tried that method and got some strange results back regarding the signal amplitudes (AC coupled) between the wheels. Overall, the signal appeared very weak, and it seemed that the ABS sensor lines were genuinely being treated by the controller as four floating differential inputs. So without the ABS controller itself pulling the ABS sensors somewhere near ground, measuring relative to that seemed the wrong way to go. Yet if I coupled the sensors together with the Picoscope, the ABS controller also got into a huff.

I should have clarified, as Steve has noted, that when I measured the wheel sensors side-by-side, the sensors were connected to the ABS controller. This is quite necessary in the context of the faults that I was trying to track down, as without a valid vehicle speed to deduce from the sensor signals, the ABS controller would not perform as normal - it would also generate issues elsewhere on the car with regard to transmission gear recognition, etc. etc.

I need to find a tame D2 (as I know that definitely has this issue) to play with for a few hours, just to try a few more things.

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Re: *NEW* : PicoScope 4225 & 4425 Automotive scopes released

Postby mdubois » Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:09 am

I just wanted to add a condition onto the request of hexibot43. How about an upgrade from the 4423 to the new one with a little bit of extra money? I bought mine less than a year ago and I would have waited had I known this one was coming out. It's also cool that they are the same price as the old ones, but not so cool to those of us who bought the older ones and see so many incredible upgrades to the new one. Everyone I know with a PicoScope has had this discussion with me.
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Re: *NEW* : PicoScope 4225 & 4425 Automotive scopes released

Postby FioranoCars » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:54 pm

A quick technical specification question, or two!
First, looking to use a Fluke 80K-6 and 80K-40 high voltage probes for various "research" and as a way to protect the scope when going where voltages might be massively higher than a 10:1 attenuator could cope with. They are 1000:1 (maybe the 40K is 10,000:1).
Here's the question, the specification calls for the DMM / Scope to have a 10 Mega Ohm Impedance, but the 4425 is stated as only 1 M Ohms. Is this a serious issue, or quoted at 10Mega Ohm because that's what fluke make their DMM's to? Are all the Pico Scopes at 1M Ohm, what about our old 3423?
If it's a problem, can I over come it with a Resister based solution? (a Diagram or link to some article would be very helpful)

I noticed that the maximum Floating Ground Variation/Difference on the 4225/4425 is only 30v, so a 24v truck can be accommodated, but new 48v power configurations is going to cause a problem, is this 30v specific? Is there a higher level planned to allow 48v system to float to battery positive?

Thanks

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