Using the latest Pico Battery Diagnostics program

Ask for and share advice on using the PicoScope kit to fix vehicles here.
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TwoWaves
TwoWaves
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Using the latest Pico Battery Diagnostics program

Post by Technician »

I completed a health check using the battery diagnostics software, the results indicated that the alternator ripple voltage 1V had a problem, the traffic light system indicated a fault in RED. The scope side of the software clearly indicated serious amounts of hash/noise present.

A test of the battery cables was carried out with no fault found, the alternator was removed, stripped and tested. I did not find anything malfunctioning in the alternator, although I did find the regulator brushes worn unevenly and the slip rings quite badly worn. I did think the alternator had a bad diode present, so I manually tested all six diodes using both the diode test function of the DMM and the Power Probe Hook. I can't say that I found a fault in the alternator that would cause this fault shown on the pico software.

The only test I could not complete myself was the regulator, which also incorporates diodes, so I called into the local alternator re-conditioners and ask their advice. I explained about the software showing up the alternator fault with the above, and that the software indicated that the alternator was only charging at 66%, he advised that he thought some equipment was too sensitive in operation!

After explaining to him how I tested the diodes he advised that back in the old days that method was OK, however, today alternators produce high current demands and that putting 12V at low wattage through rectifiers will not show up a fault, even if there is a fault.

So I left the stator with him to put new slip rings on and test the rectifier pack, along with the regulator, hopefully he'll find a fault that I could not today, otherwise it's back to the drawing board :oops:
Attachments
P1010148.JPG

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TwoWaves
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Re: Using the latest Pico Battery Diagnostics program

Post by Technician »

After a lot of head scratching and trying many ideas I have not managed to resolve the problem. Having contacted Pico Support and sent them the requested information, to-date, the scope operation is the relatively the same, in other words, one second it works and the next it does not. I did blame the new latest software because that was the first time I noticed problems, but after today, I don't think the software is the issue at all. I took this laptop into work with the old Pico software, plugged the scope in and carried out the Battery Diagnostics tests, it has produced the same fault on three separate vehicles, each one says "crank the engine" then goes immediately to charging system and results, the vehicle ignition does not need to be switched on, nor does the engine need to be cranked over, the software just goes off and does the test without the vehicle!

I did however discover that when the software advises me to crank the engine that if I left the positive battery connection disconnected, then the battery diagnostic software asks for the engine to be cranked and remains at that part of the program indefinitely, but if I put the positive scope lead back onto the battery positive terminal the scope carries out its own automatic battery test without the car cranking or ignition switched on!

So today I thought maybe I should try using channels C and D instead of A and B, hence the software then asks for the engine to be cranked over but nothing takes place thereafter, it just says crank engine over indefinitely.

I tried today reverting back to Windows 7 and the old Pico software, the tests made no difference so I must conclude that the software is not the issue!

If there was a way Pico could advise me from the trace files or some other online method as to whether the scope actually has a fault present, that would be very much appreciated. I am booked on a scope training course next month and to be honest if this scope is faulty, then the money I am spending next month is almost the cost of a new scope, I'd rather make the correct investment but deadlines are fast approaching now.

If any pico staff read this, please advise.

Steve Smith
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Re: Using the latest Pico Battery Diagnostics program

Post by Steve Smith »

Hello and thank you for the post.

Rest assured this will be resolved as discussed via support@picotech.com and it is important for the sake of clarity where we are to date with our concern.

I must apologize as I have been off site since Wednesday evening but did reply to your support request yesterday.

I understand your concern and need for a rapid solution as this is paramount in our trade

This morning at 8:19 am we have arranged an appointment for 9:30 am on Wednesday 8th (due to your existing work load) where together we can resolve this issue. If need be I will arrange an on site visit.

We must minimize the variables at this stage as we now have another PC and operating system in the loop, but still with noise issues.

To clarify to date:The trace files received indicate on the 26 July “Another instance of PicoScope is running so usage statistics will not be recorded from this instance”

This may occur when PicoScope is open or running in the background when you select Pico Diagnostics.
Pico Ben hit the nail on the head in his forum reply re “ejection” of the scope from the USB port and this remains the likely scenario for this incident.

Thereafter it would appear our connection issue had cleared thanks to the efforts of both you your computer colleague

We are missing a vital piece of the jigsaw in your Vauxhall Corsa PS data fail which would appear to be too large for the support desk. The title "Vauxhall_Corsa_2002_Petrol_steve test data 2.psdata"

Could you post a link here or on the help-desk and we can get to work on the source of the noise.

From a diagnostic point of view we need to focus on these issues.

1. Intermittent connection of PicoScope
2. Intermittent failure of the commencement of the battery test. (Pico indicated as connected)
3. Excessive noise present on the PD battery test resulting in "Ripple failure"

The diagnosis of the above items must be carried out using the current software, with your Windows 10 machine with 2 GB memory utilizing the Atom CPU (Mini PC) and ideally with any of the vehicles in question.

With regards to support, at present we have 3 avenues of communication ongoing which is proving difficult in terms of continuity.

We have the above thread, the following thread topic20811.html and our helpdesk ticket.

We are happy to support however we can but could I ask we keep this to a single line of communication only?

The forum is best for transparency as once this is resolved it will help others.
With that said, should you need to share sensitive data such as a Trace file (which contains PC data) I understand if you wish to use the Help Desk.

I look forward to Wednesday and will post the findings here.

I hope this helps clarify the situation to date, take care......Steve

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TwoWaves
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Re: Using the latest Pico Battery Diagnostics program

Post by Technician »

Hello Steve,

Thanks for replying, finally I think the upload has worked!
Vauxhall_Corsa_2002_Petrol_Steve test data 2.psdata
(11.73 MiB) Downloaded 406 times
Steve, I'd just like to add that if you wanted to do a site visit I have no problems with that at all, we're all friendly chaps at our place, tea, coffee and biscuits available :)

Please let me know what you would like to do, Author Mike should have my address to pass on but if not I can pm it to you.

Thanks

Steve Smith
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Re: Using the latest Pico Battery Diagnostics program

Post by Steve Smith »

Hello and thank you for the psdata file as this reveals a lot about our noise concern.

Now we have a PSdata file we can take advantage of the features that are not available in the Battery Test. (High sample rate and time rulers etc.)

I can see we have considerable noise peaking at over 6 V "Peak to Peak" every 30 micro seconds
Noise
Noise
The frequency of these "timed" events equates to 32.95 kHz
Peak Noise
Peak Noise
Whilst monitoring this noise with your scope, could you check for the presence of operational invertors or chargers?

Could we also switch off florescent lighting as the frequency above falls in the zone for this style of lighting?

My understanding is that your PC will not run on battery power, an additional test would be to remove the power supply from the PC to eliminate intrusion into the scope via the PC mains charger.

Not to worry, I will call tomorrow as planned and go through this with you.

This noise is most certainly why you are receiving a Charging Circuit Ripple error when using the Battery Test as the noise is being misinterpreted by the software as charging ripple.

This has led to a New Feature Request into the software team to provide a filtering option with PD for such scenarios, thank you.

Take care.......Steve

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TwoWaves
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Re: Using the latest Pico Battery Diagnostics program

Post by Technician »

Good Morning Steve,

Thank you for sending out the PicoScope. I have connected it to the MINI PC along with the supplied USB cable. I have tried a few different software programs, subject to them loading below;

The Kia Ceed 3 is the same car as last time. I have completed battery diagnostics with and without the workshop LED lighting on. The ripple voltage remains the same on this car. I have not checked but am wondering if this car has a 'smart charging system', and if that would have an effect on the results!

The Vauxhall Corsa C again is the same car as last time. I have completed the same tests as above with this car, but I have also tried the compression test and cylinder balance test software using this car to establish if anything different this time from last time with the other scope attached!

While there are a few examples posted, I thought it might be better to upload them for comparisons!
Attachments
Vauxhall_Corsa_2002_Petrol_20180811-0001 scope captures ref Steve Smith.psdata
(3.71 MiB) Downloaded 409 times
Vauxhall_Corsa_2002_Petrol_20180811-0001 lights in workshop on.psdata
(3.71 MiB) Downloaded 374 times
180811_StartTest_001 battery test with workshop lights on 3.pddata
(1.49 MiB) Downloaded 330 times
180811_StartTest_001 battery test with workshop lights off 4.pddata
(1.49 MiB) Downloaded 350 times
180811_StartTest_001 Battery and starter cranking test with charging system 3 Cylinder Petrol with led lighting switched off.pddata
(1.49 MiB) Downloaded 363 times
180811_StartTest_001 Battery and starter cranking test with charging system 3 Cylinder Petrol with led lighting switched on.pddata
(1.49 MiB) Downloaded 388 times
180811_CylinderBalance_001 cylinder balance test.pddata
(19.12 MiB) Downloaded 379 times
180811_CompressionTest_001 Relative compression test.pddata
(95.62 KiB) Downloaded 375 times
180811_StartTest_001 battery test with workshop lights on Kia Ceed 3.pddata
(2.75 MiB) Downloaded 356 times
180811_StartTest_001 battery test with workshop lights off Kia Ceed 3.pddata
(2.43 MiB) Downloaded 388 times

Steve Smith
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Re: Using the latest Pico Battery Diagnostics program

Post by Steve Smith »

Hello and thank you for the post.

I think we can safely say the workshop lighting is not an issue.

You may remember we already established this last week during our telephone discussion?

Sticking with the battery test and charging ripple failure we can safely say this is not your scope introducing this noise into the capture

Here are the captures taken here at Pico prior to sending the loan 3423 (ISR37/151) scope out to you
Battery Test
Battery Test
Donor Scope AC Coupled
Donor Scope AC Coupled
TEST 1 BATTERY TEST ON MAINS .pddata
Battery Test
(1.49 MiB) Downloaded 365 times
TEST 2 CHARGING AC COUPLED ON MAINS .psdata
Donor Scope AC Coupled
(942.19 KiB) Downloaded 374 times
At this stage:

We know that both scopes demonstrate this same noise issue with the vehicles you have tested.

We know the donor scope does not demonstrate this noise issue away from your site and with a different PC (powered by the mains)

The noise is present on the DC and AC battery voltage prior to cranking and therefore it cannot be related to the charging system.

You have confirmed this noise is present when using a laptop with another operating system powered by an internal battery.

Therefore this noise must be environmental and I see the only way to resolve this concern is to arrange a visit with you.

We can do this here or via email/phone and rest assured the results will be posted here as I am sure this will help others once we find a resolution

Take care.......Steve

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PicoKev
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Re: Using the latest Pico Battery Diagnostics program

Post by PicoKev »

David / Steve,

Reading Davids post above I notice the Phrase "Mini PC" this rings alarm bells!

Is it one of those small box atom processor jobbies with a glorified phone charger powering it!

I have have personally come across an issue a while back with one of these, doing all sorts of weird things. I was not convinced the processor was up to the job anyway but the issue was strange signal noise. I cannot remember what the noise looked like because I proved the problem by simply plugging one of my laptops into the guys scope in his workshop environment and all was then hunky dorey! :D

Given the number of threads / posts going on around this i do not have the time or the willpower to read it all through and see if the PC has been substituted with a decent laptop running on battery only, so David may already have done this, and I may well be talking "professional shoe repairers" as usual, but hey that is my default position at the best of times. :roll:

Kev.

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TwoWaves
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Re: Using the latest Pico Battery Diagnostics program

Post by Technician »

yes Kev, been there and tried what you advised. Interesting what you advise about the power supply but having had it on my laptop with older software and still gives the same problem, then I would not have thought the MINI PC power supply would be the route cause of the problem. Wednesday I'll have some free time to look deeper into the problem, if I don't resolve it by the close of business, then I'll report back here and see what Steve thinks we should do!

Thanks for the replies.

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TwoWaves
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Re: Using the latest Pico Battery Diagnostics program

Post by Technician »

Hello Steve,

This will be my second attempt at uploading the software today, it seems the forum capture software is causing me to loose data, an it is a real pain keep starting a fresh. :(

I have recorded some data using the laptop on battery power. I have two sets of data from the PD software, one for each scope, and two sets of data from the scope software using AC,DC and 200 A. In my next post, should I be lucky enough to make it that far, I'll post the next set of files from the MINI PC using both scopes just as I have with the laptop.
Vauxhall_Corsa_2002_Petrol_20180817-0001 17 - 8 - 2018.psdata
scope 3423
(3.65 MiB) Downloaded 372 times
Vauxhall_Corsa_2002_Petrol_20180817-0001 my scope.psdata
scope 4423
(10.17 MiB) Downloaded 346 times
Steve, please read the view properties for the scopes model numbers just in case I have typed them in the wrong order :oops:

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